This.Originally Posted by Jeffrey Thomason
While this might become a NEO event, right now it's just voluntary. There is a big, big difference between the two.
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This.
While this might become a NEO event, right now it's just voluntary. There is a big, big difference between the two.
"I think the most un-American thing you can say is, 'You can't say that.'” Garrison Keillor
"It's time to make your stand." - Mother Abigail
U.S. Authorizes First Evacuations of Americans From Japan Over Fears of Nuclear Crisis
Published March 17, 2011 | FoxNews.com
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The State Department says the first U.S. evacuation flight has left Japan Thursday and heading to Taiwan with about 100 people on board.
Officials also warned U.S. citizens to defer all non-essential travel to any part of the country as unpredictable weather and wind conditions risked spreading radioactive contamination from Friday's magnitude 9 earthquake and subsequent tsunami.
The travel warning extends to U.S. citizens already in the country and urges them to consider leaving. The authorized departure offers voluntary evacuation to family members and dependents of U.S. personnel in Tokyo, Yokohama and Nagoya and affects some 600 people. The U.S. also urged Americans within 50 miles of the crippled Fukushima Dai-ichi nuclear plant to relocate.
Officials defended the proposed evacuation zone for American troops and citizens in Japan.
"I want to stress this is a prudent and precautionary measure to take," Gregory Jaczko, chairman of the Nuclear Regulatory Commission, told a White House briefing. The evacuation zone recommended by the U.S. is far wider than that established by Japan, which has called for a 12-mile zone and has told those within 20 miles to stay indoors.
Jaczko also said that radiation leaking from Japan's nuclear plant does not present a danger to the western U.S. or its Pacific territories at this time.
Senior State Department official Patrick Kennedy said chartered planes will be brought in to help private American citizens wishing to leave. Flights will continue for as long as necessary, and officials were advising Americans to bring food and water with them to the airport.
The U.S. military says all families at bases on Japan's Honshu Island are eligible for voluntary departure, according to Reuters. The Pentagon tells Reuters the order applies to some 20,000 dependents of military personnel. For U.S. diplomats, flights were leaving from military bases.
The U.S. sent a group of nine experts to Japan as a "consequence management response team," a senior U.S. official told Fox News. The official described them as planners, and their job is to work with the commander of U.S. Force Japan to tell him how the U.S. would potentially operate in a radiological environment.
While one group comes in, another leaves as British and American search and rescue teams will end their operations in Friday and begin to pull out of the quake-stricken country.
Japan tells the IAEA that engineers were able to lay an external grid power cable to the Unit 2 reactor, according to Reuters. The line would allow the company to maintain a steady water supply to troubled reactors and spent fuel storage ponds.
Japanese officials are at odds over whether water dumps on the crippled Fukushima Dai-ichi nuclear plant Thursday worked as high radiation levels have been detected 19 miles away from the plant.
A spokesman for the Tokyo Electric Power Company told Japan news agency NHK that "it appears the mission was successful," while a spokesman for the Nuclear And Industrial Safety Agency says the water cannons failed in their attempt to cool the unit when the water failed to reach its target from safe distances.
Japanese military helicopters dumped water onto the crippled Fukushima Dai-ichi nuclear plant’s damaged reactors and emergency crews tried unsuccessfully to douse the reactors with water cannons.
An official from the Tokyo Electric Power Company told Japan news agency NHK "that there is a greater possibility they will be able to fill the spent fuel rod pool" for the Unit 3 reactor.
The pool requires 1,200 tons of water to be filled, but the power company official says "you only need one-third that amount to cover the spent fuel rods." Without water, there's nothing to stop the fuel rods from getting hotter and ultimately melting down.
Two twin-rotor CH-47 Chinooks from the Japanese Self-Defense Forces were used in the operation, working to drop seawater on the No. 3 and No. 4 reactors.
The choppers dumped at least four loads on the reactor in just the first 10 minutes, though television footage showed much of it appearing to disperse in the wind.
Chopper crews flew missions of about 40 minutes each to limit their radiation exposure, passing over the reactor with loads of about 7,500 liters of water.
A spokesman for the nuclear plant called it a "very severe operation," according to Sky News.
An International Atomic Energy Agency spokesman says the situation remains "very serious, but there has been no significant worsening since yesterday (Wednesday)."
Graham Andrew added that reactors 1, 2, and 3 "appear to be relatively stable, while Unit 4 remains a "major safety concern."
Japan's science ministry tells NHK that high levels of radiation have been detected 19 miles from the nuclear plant and the government has instructed residents to stay indoors.
Experts say exposure to that level of radiation for six hours would result in the maximum level considered safe for one year.
The White House said it would cooperate closely with Japan during the recovery period, and President Obama spoke with Japanese Prime Minister Naoto Kan by phone on Wednesday evening.
They discussed Japan's efforts to recover from last week's devastating earthquake and tsunami, and the nuclear crisis at the Fukushima Dai-chi plant. Obama promised Kan that the U.S. would offer constant support for its close friend and ally, and "expressed his extraordinary admiration for the character and resolve of the Japanese people," the White House said.
The International Atomic Energy Agency confirmed Wednesday that three reactors had partially melted down. Yukiya Amano, the head of the nuclear watchdog agency, says he plans on going to Japan as soon as possible.
When asked if events were out of control, he answered: "It is difficult to say."
Meanwhile, 50 employees at the Fukushima Dai-ichi nuclear plant -- dubbed the Fukushima 50 -- have put their health and well-being on the line as they try to prevent a total nuclear meltdown with conditions worsening at the plant.
The International Atomic Energy Agency reports that 20 of the workers have suffered from radiological contamination, 19 have been injured, while two others are missing.
The government has now raised the maximum radiation dose allowed for nuclear workers to 250 millisieverts from 100 millisieverts.
It is not known how much radiation has leaked from the crippled nuclear plant because the computer system that forecasts the spread of radioactivity has not been working due to malfunctioning monitoring posts, according to NHK.
A U.S. nuclear expert said he feared the worst.
"It's more of a surrender," said David Lochbaum, a nuclear engineer who now heads the nuclear safety program for the Union of Concerned Scientists, an activist group. "It's not like you wait 10 days and the radiation goes away. In that 10 days things are going to get worse."
"It's basically a sign that there's nothing left to do but throw in the towel," Lochbaum said.
There are six reactors at the plant. Units 1, 2 and 3, which were operating last week, shut down automatically when the quake hit. Since then, all three have been rocked by explosions.
Units 4, 5 and 6 were shut at the time of the quake, but even offline reactors have nuclear fuel -- either inside the reactors or in storage ponds -- that need to be kept cool.
"We don't know the nature of the damage," said Minoru Ohgoda, spokesman for the country's nuclear safety agency. "It could be either melting, or there might be some holes in them."
The grim search for survivors continues in areas the earthquake and tsunami as the mayor of a northeastern city said his town has been wiped out.
Mayor Kameyama Hiroshi told Kyodo News that 10,000 people remain missing in the city of Ishinomaki. Before the tsunami wiped out the coastal town, 164,000 people were living there.
Japan's National Police Agency says more than 12,000 people are reported missing or dead. More than 5,600 people are officially listed as dead, but officials believe the toll will climb to well over 10,000.
The country's Defense Ministry tells Japan news agency NHK that more than 25,000 have been rescued and another 23,000 are still believed to be stranded on islets near the coast.
Nearly a week after the disaster, police said more than 452,000 people were staying in schools and other shelters, as supplies of fuel, medicine and other necessities ran short. Both victims and aid workers appealed for more help.
"There is enough food, but no fuel or gasoline," said Yuko Niuma, 46, as she stood looking out over Ofunato harbor, where trawlers were flipped on their sides.
Along the tsunami-savaged coast, people must stand in line for food, gasoline and kerosene to heat their homes. In the town of Kesennuma, they lined up to get into a supermarket after a delivery of key supplies, such as instant rice packets and diapers.
Each person was only allowed to buy 10 items, NHK television reported.
With diapers hard to find in many areas, an NHK program broadcast a how-to session on fashioning a diaper from a plastic shopping bag and a towel.
In an extremely rare address to the nation Thursday, Emperor Akihito expressed condolences and urged Japan not to give up.
"It is important that each of us shares the difficult days that lie ahead," said Akihito, 77, a figure deeply respected across the country. "I pray that we will all take care of each other and overcome this tragedy."
The Pentagon said U.S. troops working on relief missions can within 50 miles to the plant with approval. Spokesman Col. David Lapan said the U.S. would review requests from the Japanese for assistance that would require troops to move within that radius, though no approval for such movement had been given since the stricter guidelines were enacted.
The Pentagon said troops are receiving anti-radiation pills before missions to areas where radiation exposure is likely.
With the arrival of three more ships to the massive humanitarian mission, there were 17,000 sailors and Marines afloat on 14 vessels in waters off Japan. Several thousand Army and Air Force service members already stationed at U.S. bases in Japan have also been mobilized for the relief efforts.
The Associated Press and NewsCore contributed to this report.
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URL
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2011/03...r-power-plant/
I can see your point to a degree. However, the military has to do this in a calm manner...1. so at to not freak out people in Japan. 2. so as to not crash the markets. USA pulling everyone out of Japan is HUGE! I have no doubt they(essential military personnel) are preparing to do so. If this was JUST to appease military families and expat's trying to get out he would NOT have included essential personnnel and HIMSELF. How many times did he say "Don't panic"? I believe, and I hope I'm wrong, that they are telling us the military will officially bug out and soon.
That said, I am not in panic mode. I don't live in Japan. However, I am trying to keep abreast of all info due to the fact that we are frequently lied to AND the isotopes involved in this catastrophe could theoretically, impact us all. I happen to think that is being a good mother, a good wife, a good citizen.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12307698
1849: Engineers hope that they can restore power so it is possible to restart the pumps needed to pour cold water on overheating fuel rods at the plant.
1847: Engineers plan to reconnect power to unit 2 once the spraying of water on the unit 3 reactor building is completed, the statement says. "The spraying of water on the unit 3 reactor building was temporarily stopped at 1109 GMT (2009 local time) on 17 March. The IAEA continues to liaise with the Japanese authorities and is monitoring the situation as it evolves," the statement adds.
1844: Japanese authorities have informed the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) that engineers were able to lay an external grid power line cable to unit 2 of Fukushima nuclear plant, according to a statement on the IAEA website.The operation was completed at 0830 GMT.
Sorry forgot the link to the vid:
Fukushima nuke crisis - Chernobyl on steroids
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7JvuUwpq40
Arnold_Gundersen
bio:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arnold_Gundersen
RT Video clip Mar 16 5:20min.
Nothing can be done, Claims there's nothing anyone (experts) can do at this point, thinks the reactors are on runaway.
===
The Whistleblower
Arnold Gundersen of Goshen
Ten years ago, Arnold Gundersen of Goshen was a senior vice president with Danbury-based Nuclear Energy Services, a card-carrying member of the nuclear industry. Since then, he has become a dedicated whistleblower, taking on the industry that once supplied him in his family with a comfortable lifestyle and a bright future.
Mr. Gundersen made the transition between these two worlds after he uncovered what he felt were safety violations at NES and reported the problem to management. Soon after making this report he was dismissed from his job and began a five-year effort to prove his case. He asserts he was blacklisted by the industry for discussing the alleged violations with state and federal regulators and was eventually sued by NES $1.5 million for defamation. The suit was settled out-of-court.
and
Arnie is an energy advisor with 39-years of nuclear power engineering experience. A former nuclear industry senior vice president, he earned his Bachelor's and Master's Degrees in nuclear engineering, holds a nuclear safety patent, and was a licensed reactor operator. During his nuclear industry career, Arnie managed and coordinated projects at 70-nuclear power plants around the country. He currently speaks on television, radio, and at public meetings on the need for a new paradigm in energy production.
An independent nuclear engineering and safety expert, Arnie provides testimony on nuclear operations, reliability, safety, and radiation issues to the NRC, Congressional and State Legislatures, and Government Agencies and Officials throughout the US, Canada, and internationally. In 2008, he was appointed by the Vermont Senate President to be the first Chair of the Vermont Yankee Nuclear Power Plant Oversight Panel. He has testified in numerous cases and before many different legislative bodies including the Czech Republic Senate.
Using knowledge from his Masters Thesis on Cooling Towers, Arnie analyzed and predicted problems with Vermont Yankee’s cooling towers three years prior to their 2007 collapse. His Environmental Court testimony concerned available and economically viable alternatives to cooling towers in order to reduce consumptive water use and the ecological damage caused by cooling tower drift and heated effluents.
As the former vice president in an engineering organization, Arnie led the team of engineers who developed the plans for decommissioning Shippingport, the first major nuclear power plant in the US to be fully dismantled. He was also an invited author on the first DOE Decommissioning Handbook.
Source term reconstruction is a method of forensic engineering used to calculate radiation releases from various nuclear facilities after nuclear incidents or accidents. Arnie is frequently called upon by public officials, attorneys, and intervenors, to perform source term reconstructions. His source term reconstruction efforts vary. Arnie has calculated exposures to oil workers, who received radiation exposure while working on wells. He has also calculated radiation releases to children with health concerns, who live near a nuclear facility, like the one that carted radioactive sewage off-site and spread it on farmers' fields. Finally, he has performed an accurate source term construction of the radiation releases from the Three Mile Island nuclear accident.
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There ya go, feel better? Or are you still feeling seeriously undermedicated?
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For Fresh Black Elderberry Extract, Lomatium & More, see this thread in Swaps & Sales:
http://www.timebomb2000.com/vb/showthread.php?p=3361015
Atsugi US Naval Air Station is in a suburban area south of Tokyo. Air Operations are moving well north.
Hard for me to know if Atsugi is being abandoned because of failing services or radiation. Typically, these stations had their own power plants with some fuel reservers. Do not know if that is still the case or not.
In either case, shutting down the air base is extreme and very bad news for Tokyo-Yokohoma metro area.
that which one man receives without working for, another man must work for without receiving." -- Kenneth W. Sollitt
Don't bother them, they are drinking.
May God be with us in the coming days
None of what you posted negates my statement.
He is a VERY knowlegeable man. Respected once by nearly everyone in the Nuclear Industry. But that time has passed. he is now paid for (and by) the anti nuclear folks. While i would listen to what he has to say, I would also be aware that he has an agenda, and is being paid for by those who HATE anything to do with nuclear power or atomic research. Hate. As in would do anything to stop or to close any plant.
THus, his testimony is suspect. I would expect him to use his past history and his presence to bring credibility to their chosen subject matter, and do the bidding of his employers to paint worst case scenarios in order to sway opinion. It is why they pay him.
He IS a paid shill for the anti-nuclear folks. That does not mean he is wrong, or his opinion should be dismissed....Just that you should realize that he is being PAID to deliver a statement as part of an agenda.
See my other stuff at: middleoftheright.net
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/...72G6HD20110317
Pshakin said the crisis unfolding after an earthquake crippled reactors at Fukushima was unlikely to become a second Chernobyl, and fears about a chain reaction in the spent fuel pool were groundless.
"It cannot be compared with Chernobyl. We had a totally different situation, a real fire. At Fukushima there is no fire, and nothing to burn, there is no graphite there. Only the spews of steam can take place there," he said.
"I do not understand why there is such a noise about the fire in the spent fuel pool. There is nothing to burn there." Japan said the situation in the pool remained a serious concern.
Pshakin said that at Chernobyl, the scene of the world's worst nuclear accident in 1986, a massive expulsion of heavy radioactive metals such as plutonium and strontium into the atmosphere resulted from the fire and explosions.
He said there was no likelihood of this happening at Fukushima.
"Even if they have a meltdown, it will still only be small particles and steam," he said. Due to the presence of zirconium it was likely that electrolysis of water could lead to the formation of hydrogen and oxygen.
"Their mixture could result in local explosions if there are sparks or overheating," he said. He expects the reactors to start cooling within 10 days.
"The picture should clear up within 10 days. Then the self-cooling will reach the point where the remaining water will be enough. But circulation should be fixed in any case," he said.
Pshakin said that caesium which is being spewed into the atmosphere at Fukoshima has a half-life period of 100 days, and he expects radiation levels to exceed the norm by 3-5 times outside the 30-kilometre zone around Fukushima.
Throughout the world
Everywhere we are all brothers
Why then do the winds and waves rage so turbulently?
I heard this on the newz this AM at 0.18 "they're clueless."
ABC: Japan's Reactors: Clock Ticks As Options Run Out
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZ9sHpcPays
Physicist Michio Kaku assesses Japan's worsening nuclear crisis. (March 17th)
BTW love this guy.
“The quieter you become, the more you can hear.”
― Ram Dass
This has all been interesting, but perhaps we can all move on. He worked for nuclear power people so they paid him. Then he got disillusioned and quit, so they are unlikely to KEEP paying him. Since he attained a new more jaundiced viewpoint, he now agrees with people who opposed nuclear power, so that seems like a pretty fair place to find a job. I presume he needs to keep eating, and he no longer finds cognitive dissonance in his work. That would make him MORE reliable in my view, not less.
His history and presence DOES bring credibility. That's why they hired him. Should they hire Bozo the Clown?I would expect him to use his past history and his presence to bring credibility to their chosen subject matter
Give it a rest.
Just refuting the statments made. The point is that he says what his masters tell him to, just like the spokespeople for the power plant. Trust neither of them. His credibility is neither better nor worse than any others who are paid to speak the words of their masters. Each has an agenda.
I do not understand why there is such a noise about the fire in the spent fuel pool. There is nothing to burn there."
What about the cladding on the fuel rods, which has been talked about extensively? And if there's fire, which he seems to allude to, there's something burning there.
The link Jeffery posted from:
http://plainenglishnuclear.blogspot....ctor-post.html
Is very interesting. Note the comments below in at the link. The author of the blog is attempting to downplay and soothe people and admits he is no expert at all. Note also how most comments slam him for this. Note also his attitude of talking down - he's the "authority" and everyone who's concerned is apparently a drooling fool The author of the blog presents questioners as idiots, fools and retarded children. What a piece of nonsense! People on TB2 want info, not propaganda pablum! Sheesh.
Asato Ma Sad Gamaya
Tamaso Ma Jyotir Gamaya
Leave illusion, come to the Truth
Leave the darkness, come to the Light
Fire yes. But not like the graphite fire at Chernobyl. The current fire is like burning aluminum (zirconium). Not as hot, and not rapid, and very little of it. Chernobyl was TONS of graphite. Like charcoal or old tires, only hotter. Pure carbon, essentially. Burns really, really hot. That is what carried the core materials so high into the atmosphere, the heat from the fire. This is nothing compared to that. Bad, yes. But not like the fire at chernobyl.
See my other stuff at: middleoftheright.net
Yeah, his omission of talking about the spent fuel rod pools is pretty obvious, still I thought it was a good run down on the state of the reactor cores. YMMV, it was a link being passed around twitter.
Throughout the world
Everywhere we are all brothers
Why then do the winds and waves rage so turbulently?
Except, if you read some of the posts on TB2K (this thread and others) he is addressing exactly those concerns. And addressing some of the outlandish statements made in the media. HE IS ACTUALLY GIVING FACTS. Since some of the questions I have seen here and other places on the net, and by reporters (and incorrect statements and answers to those questions) show that the level of understanding of how the systems work is very small for some folks, I'd say he is doing a service. Nothing he has said is incorrect. He did leave some things out, but in the main, he is more correct than about half of what I have seen posted in this thread.
Perhaps you'd rather have statemts that go OMG!!!!WE ARE ALL GONNA DIE!!! get your shit together and bug out!!!! Do you want facts or hyperbole?
See my other stuff at: middleoftheright.net
Just being a "devil's advocate" to help keep the echoes from the forum, I presume.
Thanks /sarc
Asato Ma Sad Gamaya
Tamaso Ma Jyotir Gamaya
Leave illusion, come to the Truth
Leave the darkness, come to the Light
Radiation Levels
o At 9:20AM (JST) on March 17, radiation level at elevation of 1,000ft above Fukushima Daiichi Nuclear Power Station: 4,130 micro sievert.
o At 9:20AM on March 17, radiation level at elevation of 300ft above Fukushima Daiichi Nuclear Power Station: 87,700 micro sievert.
and
o Through visual surveys from the helicopter flying above the Unit 4 reactor secondary containment building on March 16, it was observed that water remained in the spent fuel pool. The helicopter was measuring radiation levels above Unit 4 reactor secondary containment building in preparation for water drops. This report has not been officially confirmed.
I'm feeling a bit skeptical IRT to the accuracy of these radiation readings. After all they're being provided by paid shills (employees) of the nuclear industry.
And
There may be some water in the spent fuel pool of unit 4, but there were multiple voracious hydrogen explosions occurring in that building. The building is wrecked. That hydrogen certainly came from the spent fuel pool. That could only be possible if the water levels receded to a level allowing for exposure.
Evidently the same thing is ongoing at reactor 3.
C'mon, it's so hot they can't get back in there.
Toast!
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Physicist Michio Kaku another paid shill for the Obama administration works as a paid adviser to ABC. Green anti-nuke with an agenda. Just ask the folks over at the market ticker.
Posted by Tom - an unpaid shill on his way for Corn Beef and Cabbage, plus a few drams of Bushmill and Guinness.
Will return after becoming seeriously medicated.
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For Fresh Black Elderberry Extract, Lomatium & More, see this thread in Swaps & Sales:
http://www.timebomb2000.com/vb/showthread.php?p=3361015
You're inconsistent. So the guy who admits he's not an expert and talks down to people as though they're drooling idiots on some blog, is to be respected as an authority, but Gunderson who actually is an authority, is just serving evil masters. Get your story straight.
Asato Ma Sad Gamaya
Tamaso Ma Jyotir Gamaya
Leave illusion, come to the Truth
Leave the darkness, come to the Light
A lot of employees of the nuclear industry are likely going to die or have early deaths trying to save as many other lives as possible.I'm feeling a bit skeptical IRT to the accuracy of these radiation readings. After all they're being provided by paid shills (employees) of the nuclear industry.
Throughout the world
Everywhere we are all brothers
Why then do the winds and waves rage so turbulently?
So what would make you happy? I've said the situation is bad, it's terrible, people are going to die.
Will it affect us in the US radiologically? No.
Will a large portion of Japan be rendered uninhabitable? No.
Frankly I'm more scared of the economic and political fall out then I am of the radioactive fall out.
FFS, I have friends in Japan, one of whose town was WIPED OUT.
I'm just trying to provide information, it's up to each one of us individually to decide what to do with that information.
If people will be happier if I just stop, I will.
Throughout the world
Everywhere we are all brothers
Why then do the winds and waves rage so turbulently?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12307698
2006: Japanese broadcaster NHK reports that radiation levels have dropped at the Fukushima plant.
2013: Japan's government orders radioactivity tests on food produced in the municipality near the Fukushima plant, which has not gone down well with everyone. Tatsuya Kakita, the head of a research institute on consumer issues, tells Kyodo news agency : "The decision makes it look as if contaminated food is already on the market."
This article sounds like the crews are having troubles. Notice the part that says they now have 322 workers who have replaced the original 180. Have not seen that elsewhere so cannot be sure this is accurate. Fair use:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011...pens-radiation
Japan nuclear crisis deepens as radiation keeps crews at bay
Helicopter crews and teams of police officers in water cannon trucks are battling intense radiation at the crippled Fukushima power station in Japan in a desperate bid to douse overheating fuel rods with tonnes of water.
Authorities have drafted in extra workers and turned to ever more radical tactics as fears grow that pools used to cool down spent fuel rods have leaked, leaving the rods exposed and in danger of catching fire, which could release huge amounts of radiation into the air.
Tepco, the company that operates the plant, has increased its workforce at the power station from 180 to 322 and replaced those who have reached – or in some cases surpassed – the maximum allowed dose of radiation.
The emergency workers focused their efforts on the storage pool at reactor 3, the only unit at the site that runs on mixed oxide fuel, which contains reclaimed plutonium. The strategy appeared to conflict with comments made by US nuclear officials and Sir John Beddington, the UK government's chief science adviser, who are most concerned about the storage pool at reactor 4, which they say is now completely empty.
"The water is pretty much gone," Beddington said, adding that storage pools at reactors 5 and 6 were leaking. "We are extremely worried about that. The reason we are worried is that there is a substantial volume of material there and this, once it's open to the air and starting to heat up, can start to emit significant amounts of radiation."
The storage pools are supposed to be kept below 25C to keep the spent fuel rods from heating up, but temperature readings at the ponds in reactor buildings 4, 5 and 6 show temperatures have been rising this week, to around 60C in pools 5 and 6 and at least 84C at reactor 4.
The government has urged British citizens to move at least 50 miles from the Fukushima 1 plant, in line with an exclusion zone declared by the US Nuclear Regulatory Commission. Britain's Met Office said it had begun sophisticated modelling of the radiation plume and was passing that information to the Cobra emergency committee but not making it public. The Japanese authorities maintained that their 20km exclusion zone was sufficient, with those within 30km advised to seal their homes and stay indoors.
The concern with reactor 3 appears to stem from an explosion on Monday that is thought to have damaged the primary containment facility around the reactor's core. If the storage pool at the reactor runs dry, radiation levels could soar so high that engineers cannot approach the reactor to try and bring it under control. David Lochbaum, a nuclear physicist for the Union of Concerned Scientists and a former Nuclear Regulatory Commission safety instructor, said the level of radiation beside the exposed rods would deliver a fatal dose in 16 seconds.
The frantic attempts to refill the leaking storage pool came as engineers installed a kilometre-long power cable to replace those destroyed in last Friday's earthquake and reconnect the power plant to the grid. Engineers said the power supply would first provide electricity to reactor 2. Japan's Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency (Nisa) said three of the plant's six reactors – numbers 1, 5 and 6 – were relatively stable.
The fresh power supply will be used to drive pumps that are needed at three of the reactors to circulate seawater and prevent their nuclear cores from going into meltdown. The water levels in all three reactors are dangerously low, exposing between 1.4m and 2.3m of the fuel rods, according to Nisa. The fuel rods should be covered with water at all times to prevent meltdown.
The UN nuclear watchdog said engineers were able to lay an external grid power cable to reactor 2 and would reconnect it "once the spraying of water on the unit 3 reactor building is completed". It said water cannons had temporarily stopped spraying reactor 2 at 1109 GMT.
Five teams of police officers in water cannon trucks have tried to get close enough to reactor 3 to douse the storage ponds but were forced back after an hour when radiation rose to a dangerous level.
Minutes later military helicopters flew overhead and dropped 30 tonnes of water, but from such a height much of it appeared to miss the target. The storage pools are located in the top level of the reactor buildings and are exposed at reactors 1 and 3 because hydrogen explosions have torn their roofs off. Hidehiko Nishiyama, deputy director general of Nisa, said it was unclear whether the strategy had succeeded in topping up the ponds.
When you come to the end of your rope, tie a knot and hang on.
~Franklin D. Roosevelt
Absolutely. The whole world economy depends on smooth flows of funds, and the quake is a wrench in the works. If the nuclear recovery effort were to go without a single flaw or casualty from this day forward, we're still in economic doo-doo so deep we are going to see brown for the rest of our lives.
You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
There ain't no stopping a man who knows he's right and just keeps on a coming. L. Lamour
Frankly, those are unknowns, at the moment. A disaster such as this with the parameters being what they are has never happened before and there is nothing with which to compare it. We all hope you are absolutely right, but the jury is still out regardless of whatever the media is telling us.
Mayhap it will, mahap it won't. Let's just keep the information conduit open and wait and see. No panic, no hyperbole, but to make either of those statements as fact is not much different than lighting our hair on fire and screaming 'we're all gonna die".
The thing about common sense is, it is not so common any moreSic Semper Tyrannis
"SO......What's going on in the Land of WTF Just Happened?" ~ Mr. BurtonLake
Yeah, but don't ignore the out of control Semi while focusing on the biker gang behind hiim.
You can recover from economic doo doo.
There ain't no pill to fix the levels of fall-out that have every chance of occuring.
You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
There ain't no stopping a man who knows he's right and just keeps on a coming. L. Lamour
My point exactly.
I just get tired of the folks who only want doom. And who only want to listen to/hear those who preach doom.
The truth is somewhere between what the folks at the power plant are telling us, and what the anti-nuclear folks who are quoted at length by the media to sensationalize the story are telling us.
It IS bad. But it is NOT the end of the world. 6 months from now, the effect on Japan is going to be marginal, if even measurable. The effect on the us will be nearly unmeasurable if even that bad. The effect of the earthquake and tsunami will be thousands of times greater for Japan than the power plant effects.
As you say, the economic effects will be with us long after the rest have been forgotten.
See my other stuff at: middleoftheright.net
Wow...
Dazed said:
It IS bad. But it is NOT the end of the world. 6 moths from now, the effect on Japan is going to be marginal, if even measurable. The effect on the us will be nearly unmeasurable if even that bad.
THIS is the kind of unmitigated CRAP that I can't stand. I don't mind if you say, "In my opinion... blah blah blah..." But when you state this like you have the direct line to God, that offends me hugely. Because YOU ARE JUST SPECULATING, LIKE THE REST OF US. There's no PhD after your name, just like there isn't one after Jeffrey Thomason's. So far, MickeyMouse has consistently given the most balanced accounting of the various "what-if" scenarios.
If all you're going to do is sound like a cheerleading squad for nuclear power and the NRC, then I cordially invite you to STAY THE HELL OFF THIS THREAD. If you want to speculate, fine. Just don't make it sound like YOU KNOW, because YOU DON'T.
Period.
1947: The BBC's Andrew North in Washington says Mr Obama did not address the continuing question as to why the Americans are recommending a 50-mile exclusion zone around the plant, when the Japanese are recommending a 20-mile zone.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12307698
"The most intriguing point for the historian is that where history and legend meet."
"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who think they are free."
Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
Jeff, that's a given. Not to diminish their sacrifice whatsoever. My point was rather clumsily made. Nearly all initial information is distorted during a crisis of this magnitude. Especially nowadays when the truth is an ever increasingly rare commodity.
I appreciate your posts and the personal efforts provided to bring information forward.
FWIW I've been through the whole Chernobyl thing. Deaths, cover-ups, and dis-info. I've been there and seen what this stuff is really all about. Most of it I've been trying to forget because it's so damned ugly. Radiation sickness, cancers, deformities, areas closed for tens of thousands of years - the works.
Are there people out there with an agenda? Yes and they're bastards when they capitalize on fear and misery through duplicity.
Denial however is another insidious poison. Especially when vital time is lost.
===
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For Fresh Black Elderberry Extract, Lomatium & More, see this thread in Swaps & Sales:
http://www.timebomb2000.com/vb/showthread.php?p=3361015
The one thing that is sorely missing, and I'm sure it's missing even for those with boots on the ground, is clarity... there is no clarity in this situation and there are tons of opinions flying back and forth (even the people WITH PhDs disagree on where we end up ultimately).
Throughout the world
Everywhere we are all brothers
Why then do the winds and waves rage so turbulently?
Interesting panel discussion at MIT: http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2011/n...apan-0136.html
That exposure of the fuel rods led to a buildup of hydrogen, which was vented along with steam from the containment vessel to avoid overstressing it, and that led to an explosion in the upper regions of the building, in each of the three units, over the next three days. “The safety systems should have prevented this [hydrogen buildup] from happening,” Hutchinson said. But, up to this point, the explosions had not breached the containment structures that surround the nuclear fuel.
Then, on Tuesday — although the information coming out has been “somewhat garbled,” Hutchinson said — there was an explosion in unit 2 that was reported to have damaged the inner containment structure, designed to keep the radioactive materials in the core from reaching the outside world. The size of the breach remains unknown, he said, “but this is a very bad thing, because there's an opportunity for a greater release of radiation.”
Another risk developed from the shut-down unit 4, where there has been a fire in the area of the spent fuel pool — which actually can contain similar amounts of radioactive isotopes to the active reactor fuel. “These are very serious problems,” Hutchinson said.Asked to predict what the worst possible outcome might be, Kazimi said that “what we already have is damaged fuel” in at least three reactors, which brings with it “the possibility of [radioactive] releases as long as the water is not controlled. If for some reason the pumping of water is lost for a long period, that will precipitate a melting of the fuel.” However, since the reactors have already been shut down and the heat output is very low, that heating “is not a fast process,” he said.
If the fuel does fully melt, he said, it would “relocate downward,” where it would hit a pool of water at the base of the reactor building, which is there specifically to cool off the molten fuel in case of such an emergency. When the molten fuel reaches the water, Kazimi said, it would solidify again, where it could later be carved up and removed, as was done at Three Mile Island. “It is not likely we would see any explosion that would compare” with the one that took place in 1986 at Chernobyl, he said.In the event of further, larger radiation releases, she said, it is possible that the area where people have so far been temporarily evacuated could end up being evacuated permanently — or, alternatively, that people would choose to live there, knowing they face continuing radiation exposure and an elevated heath risk. They could be facing “a massive evacuation,” she said, “or figure that they need to live with elevated radiation levels.” There are some parts of the world that naturally receive 40 times the dose received on average in the U.S. But, there is “very little data” on the effects of such long-term, low-level exposure.
Lester added that there was one reported case of a plant worker who had received a high dose of radiation, 10 rem, which is about twice the allowed annual exposure for plant workers in one year. The health consequences of that, he said, would be an increase in that person’s lifetime risk of developing cancer from the 25 percent expected for the overall population to about 25.3 percent. Since that report, it seems likely that workers at the plant have been exposed to higher doses, but detailed information is lacking.
Throughout the world
Everywhere we are all brothers
Why then do the winds and waves rage so turbulently?
Speaking of the MIT guys, the MITNSE site just posted this: http://mitnse.com/2011/03/17/on-worst-case-scenarios/
Thankfully, operating experience with melted fuel speaks favorably. At Three Mile Island, approximately 50% of the core’s nuclear fuel melted, and just 5/8 inch (out of 9 inches) of the reactor pressure vessel’s internal surface was ablated. During the corium’s contact with the bottom of the vessel, the vessel glowed red-hot for about an hour. The heat to which the vessel was exposed induced metallurgical changes in the steel, rendering it more brittle. Instrumentation penetrations in the lower vessel head also suffered damage. Nevertheless, the molten core was contained by the vessel.
In the event that molten corium does, as has been the case in some experiments, penetrate the lower head of the reactor vessel, it will drop onto the concrete basemat of the containment and spread out as far as possible. The interaction of corium with concrete is known to produce a buildup of non-condensable gases within the containment, a process called molten-core concrete interaction (MCCI).The experiments have shown that without water quenching, corium under conditions similar to those present at Fukushima Dai-ichi will ablate the meters-thick concrete pad at a rate of just millimeters per minute. Gases would build up within the containment at a rate which would require filtered ventilation of the containment in order to prevent rupture.
If, however, water is supplied to quench the corium as it spreads onto the reactor floor, the ablation occurs at 5-7% of the pre-quench rate, and production of gases is suppressed. The rate of ablation continues to undergo fits and starts, as the corium forms a solid crust, and then this crust is broken and re-formed.
Throughout the world
Everywhere we are all brothers
Why then do the winds and waves rage so turbulently?
Yes!!!!!!!
If you wish, then tell me to and I will. The fact is that there are those who are screaming doom who you have not censured as you have me THEY speak from ignorance, which you'd know if you knew what you were talking about. There is more to this than worst case scenarios. IF YOU BOTHER TO LEARN then you will realize that there will not be the contmination level like there would be from a chernobyl like incident because there is no graphite to carry the fission products high into the atmosphere. Any particles from the incident will likely be barely measurable on the west coast, if at all. Most fission particles being carried from the plant are short lived and will fade quickly even in the surrounding area.
No, I don't have PHD in nuclear science BUT NEITHER DO ANY OF YOU FOLKS HAMMERING ON ME WHO ARE CRYING ABOUT HOW BAD IT COULD BE. I did many things before beginning my current profession. You really don't know my background, nor do you know the extent of my knowledge. You really DO show your ignorance on many facts about this. I do know more than you do, Dennis. I have both the background and the experience which you lack. If you wish to ban me, then do so. But then you should ban all the others here who speak from true ignorance in their fear. If MM wants to point out wher I am wrong, I'll gladly take HIS rebuke. But I won't from those who really know nothing except what they have learned in the past few days from internet articles of dubious provenance and from the news media.
Things are NOT perfect. But neither were they at TMI, and despite the hype and sensationalizing by the media, it turned out to be nothing more than a very messy and expensve cleanup opertion. This incident WILL be worse than TMI, significantly so, but not as bad as the media or the anti-nuclear folks want it to be. It COULD be as bad as they say. Then again, It COULD be as good as others say. The truth, as I have stated many times, is somewhere in the middle.
If all you want is DOOM, the change the name of TB2k.
Else you risk turning this site into a doomer joke. And that is not the site that it once was. It was once much better than that.
ETA: Are you going to squelch the others who don't have a PHD who predict the worst case scenarios? They have no credentials either, yet you let them yammer on. So why is their predictions any more valid than mine? Or do you get special treatment for predicting bad things?
See my other stuff at: middleoftheright.net
No, I don't have PHD in nuclear science BUT NEITHER DO ANY OF YOU FOLKS HAMMERING ON ME WHO ARE CRYING ABOUT HOW BAD IT COULD BE.
The difference is that THEY are saying (as you ADMITTED) how bad it COULD BE. YOU are saying HOW GOOD IT *WILL* BE. See the difference? You're a smart man. Take another look.
I do know more than you do, Dennis. I have both the background and the experience which you lack.
You can PM or email me your bona fides in this field and I will be happy to review them, and upon said qualifying review, convey to the forum membership the validity of your background, experience and qualifications to make the unequivocal statements that you have made regarding this disaster. Otherwise, it's all hot-air, just like everyone else.
Rest assured that I will keep all information provided in complete confidence (and would be willing to sign a non-disclose at your request), and I WILL CHECK all data and training provided.
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