Asato Ma Sad Gamaya
Tamaso Ma Jyotir Gamaya
Leave illusion, come to the Truth
Leave the darkness, come to the Light
[QUOTE=SIRR1;4023568] I agree.
They did. Generators were on site rather quickly considering that the area just had the FOURTH most powerful earthquake in history (9.1, last I heard) and a tsunami in excess of 33 feet, higher in some areas. The local area was devastated, probably killing many of the plant workers in addition to 10 or 20 thousand other people. How many plant workers died or had to decide to go to work or care for therir families? Ever consider how you move heavy equipment through 10 feet of mud? Ever DO it?If hooking up power lines to get the water pumps restarted is going to fix everything, then why didn't they bring in as many industrial diesel generators as they needed days ago to accomplish the very same thing?
And that helped how? Did the Japanese hear you? Did anyone on the board learn something from it?
I made that statement many, many, many posts ago and why they did not go all out to get them there?!! Someone thats in control that should not be.
Do you have ANY IDEA of the size pumps that are involved? The electrical requirements of them? Do you know what size generators are needed? Think of a locomotive engine. They are THAT big. 2500000 watts - each. They weigh a good many TONS. The complex had 11 of those. I doubt there was one or maybe two available in ALL of Japan. How about the wire to connect one? The stuff is as big around as your arm and many runs of THAT size. It ain't lamp cord!! Not 120 volts like your house, either. 2400 /4160 3 phase - at least. That is 4,160 volts which is NOT forgiving. Either do it right or some one dies; maybe some "unobtanium" gets destroyed. Everywhere they had to work was muddy, wet, slick and COLD. Tired people, worried about their lost home and dead families are NOT the most efficient workers. Emergency tie-ins to existing panels, if not damaged, is a labor intensive task. It is demanding, dirty, dangerous, hard work. That they have jury rigged enough to cool the 3 reactors at all amazes me. You don't hear much about the reactors themselves now do you? News media lost interest because they were no longer sensational as they have been slowly brought under at least some degree of control.
Ever consider that the damage to facilities of those plans was SO MASSIVE that a SMART GUY looked at the flooded motors, mud filled switch gear, broken piping, ruptured water tanks, destroyed controls etc, etc, etc, and said "oh my, this is going to take some time". Construction of ONE reactor takes YEARS. Fixing the EQ / tidal wave damage would have taken a year or two BEFORE TSHTF! Mister "Oh my" which I can assure you is NOT what he said, no doubt tried to prioritize his resources and get the most bang for the buck - and I DON'T mean money!
Ever consider that those reactors have a STEAM driven pump that can cool them for a LONG, LONG time with zero electrical power? That has only been pointed out on this thread at LEAST a half dozen times. So why did the STEAM pumps not work? An EQ maybe? TEPCO hasn't said. Maybe we can read about it in a year or two.
I suspect plant management was on the phone 3o min after the tsunami screaming for help, generators, wire, technical help and about a thousand other things I haven't thought of. Proabably got told "we'll get back to you".
Until you have been faced with the unthinkable, something that ain't in the books where your butt is on the line and you're scared stiff about what is going to happen and things are so bad that a clue would be a Godsend you might want to rethink being critical of what they gave their lives for.
Yes, maybe they were. God rest their souls. Now many more are going to be very sick and maybe die. I think they would like to at least be appreciated. Seems a small thing we can give them for their sacrifice.Ya know, maybe possibly the folks who were in charge of the fukushima plants emergency response team were killed in the earth quake or tsunami.
And that is why the people who were in charge from Friday on at the fukushima plant did not have a clue on what to do like calling for big gennys to power the cooling pumps...
Something drastically wrong had to happen here because the people in charge were for sure amateurs.
You might want to cut them a little slack until you know what REALLY happened. I think they may just have accomplished more miracles than they made mistakes! They are doing it under UNBELIEVABLY difficult, possibly life threatening conditions, faced by a situation that a sci-fi writer would have considered too far-fetched to even consider.
It is all too easy for us to sit in our warm easy chair drinking a cold one eating a hot meal the little wife just fixed hammering away on a keyboard while bone tired, sick men are putting their lives on the line for other people. Men who have been wracking their brains and working their butts off for a week, eating cold rice balls and sleeping on a mat in freezing cold. You do as you please, I'm gonna cut them MORE than a little slack, I'm going to call them heros.
This was not suppost to happen!
SIRR1
That is spelled supposed, BTW.
Nope. Neither was an EQ of this magnitude and tsunami BOTH higher than all the university types said was EVER POSSIBLE. Like 9/11, Chernobyl, TMI, WWII, airplane crashes, car wrecks, divorces and a few million other events that should never have happened.
A friend of mine has a son in the Navy, he is currently stationed in Japan. She heard from him today, he said they ARE being evacuated to Guam, and it is NOT voluntary. For what it's worth...
Laurie
The truth CAN be most difficult to find.
You really have two choices;
One is to trust someone that is supposed to know
OR
turn off the TV, get confortable and read until YOU know enough to at least filter out the truth from the BS.
It is easier if one has spent a number of years learning stuff instead of so many other leisure activities available to us.
I just did a quick search on the people who are claiming Americans are buying up all the iodide (I'm surprised they didn't use the term "hoarding"). I always look to who the critics are and any hidden agendas like global "warming" bs.
Scientific IntegrityThe most vocal critics of the Union of Concerned Scientists assert that the organization harbors a liberal "pro-regulation, anti-business" agenda.[31][32] In 2004, the conservative media watchdog Media Research Center called the UCS an "unlabeled left-wing activist group";[33] in 2007, the watchdog's founder L. Brent Bozell reiterated this assertion.[34] In 2009, the conservative website NewsMax described the UCS as a "left-wing" organization that "receives substantial donations from liberal-leaning foundations."[32][35] Libertarian author and television personality John Stossel has also accused the organization of having a "left-wing" agenda.[36]
In 2006, two physicists associated with the American Physical Society criticized the UCS for not supporting a government-run nuclear waste reprocessing program.[37] The UCS has also been criticized by skeptics of global warming. In 2007, the conservative think tank Capital Research Center accused the UCS of waging a "jihad against climate skeptics",[38] and televangelist Jerry Falwell even cautioned Evangelical Christians against "falling for...global warming hocus-pocus" propagated in the mass media, with the UCS "leading the charge".[39]
Etc., etc., etc. Same old 'America is bad' morons.Global Warming
The Earth is warming and human activity is the primary cause. Climate disruptions put our food and water supply at risk, endanger our health, jeopardize our national security, and threaten other basic human needs. Some impacts—such as record high temperatures, melting glaciers, and severe flooding and droughts—are already becoming increasingly common across the country and around the world. So far, our national leaders are failing to act quickly to reduce heat-trapping emissions.
However, there is much we can do to protect the health and economic well-being of current and future generations from the consequences of the heat-trapping emissions caused when we burn coal, oil, and gas to generate electricity, drive our cars, and fuel our businesses.
Our country is at a crossroads: the United States can act responsibly and seize the opportunity to lead by developing new, innovative solutions, as well as immediately putting to use the many practical solutions we have at our disposal today; or we can choose to do nothing and deal with severe consequences later. At UCS we believe the choice is clear. It is time to push forward toward a brighter, cleaner future.
Among others. So, they are propagators of the global warming farce, that should indicate their bias and globalist agenda as well as the media outlet that used them as an authority on facts. People must be so careful about news sources and media references-this is a good example.
First, I agree with your assessment that the workers at that plant are heroes, doing the best they can under unimaginable circumstances.
But I also wanted to emphasize what you said above with a picture taken in the Sendai airport. Now of course, Sendai was much closer to the epicenter, and we've all seen picture of the tsunami as it washed over that airport -but I'm posting this picture so some of us can imagine what the inside of some of those reactor sites MIGHT have looked like after the EQ/tsunami/multiple hydrogen explosions, and continuous aftershocks. Probably not covered in mud as the airport room is, but then again, the airport didn't have hydrogen explosions that blew the roof off either.
Can you imagine trying to work in a room like this? If you couldn't just walk away but had to stay and make the best of it because thousands of lives were on the line?
Don't judge the folks at those plants. We have NO IDEA what conditions were after the EQ/Tsunami, and certainly not after the explosions that rocked those buildings.
AGAIN, THIS IS NOT THE REACTOR. THIS IS SENDAI AIRPORT. It's just posted for some general idea of what a disaster can do to a control room.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/picture...5875-22996452/
Some pics of the type of generator used at power plants. This one traveled through part of East TN last year on its' journey from Knoxville to St. Charles, VA. It required a specially built 56 axle, yes 56 axle, rig to move it.
The ones needed for Fukushima are probably not quite this big but they certainly aren't something that you could fit into your garage.
An excerpt from one of the articles about how it was transported:
From: http://www.wbir.com/news/local/story...storyid=124417
"Along the 170-mile route, the generator will be causing traffic backups as the 640-ton, 23-foot-wide, 225-foot-long piece of equipment and its rigging take up entire roadways.
...The generator will only move around 10 miles per hour during its trek, which means it will likely take about 15 days to reach its final destination...."
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"I think the most un-American thing you can say is, 'You can't say that.'” Garrison Keillor
"It's time to make your stand." - Mother Abigail

[QUOTE=MickeyMouse;4023615] Thanks MickeyM, that needed to be said. We sit here with power, heat and light and Monday morning quarterback those who have put their life on the line. I understand people being upset about sloppy or just plain wrong news reporting, or not fully understanding power reactor engineering or radiological disaster response, and concerned for their families, but those guys are doing what they can and when this is over there will be plenty of time to critique their mistakes.
This thread and this forum has been full of valuable information with many situations correctly appraised long before the media understood what was going on.
Your advice to get out some books and do some basic reading is excellent. A day or two on the web doesn't cut it to make you informed about nuclear power. Neither does reading the latest news or pseudoscience articles. We have readers who invest thousands of dollars in weapons and months and years understanding ballistics and reloading science, or have the extensive medical training or an understanding of herbs and botany equal to a colledge degree, yet seem to give short shrift to nuclear preparedness.
Thank you and the many others who have increased the understanding of many about this disaster and uncovered a glaring hole in many of our preps.
"I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself. A small bird will drop frozen dead from a bough without ever having felt sorry for itself." -DH Lawrence
"We do not see things as they are, we see things as we are." - The Talmud
W7VOA Steve Herman
If I'm doing math right the people in Fukushima city absorbing equiv. of 1.75 chest x-rays daily at current rate.
2 minutes ago
“The quieter you become, the more you can hear.”
― Ram Dass




Let's see. What needs to happen to generate a danger to the US West Coast?
Well, first we need an ongoing fire. Not just a little 100 ft diameter kero fire but something that has clouds of smoke and particles that are billowing up to about 20,000 ft.
Then we need some situation that causes LOTS of particulates to be loosed so that they can be picked up by the fire (understand this fire has to have the same heat and updraft capability as Dresden in terms of energy etc) and those particulates have to be lofted to the 20Kft level.
THEN they have to be picked up by the jet stream and flown over several thousand miles of ocean to get to Calif.
Now just ANY particles won't do. they have to be radioactive materials. And you have to look at the various half-lifes of the different materials involved.
At the present time we haven't got the FIRST requirement in place. There is SOME evidence that we MIGHT be seeing the particles being loosed, but they aren't being distributed high enough to do more than contaminate the local 50 km area.
DEEP BREATHS, people. Because this is a situation in which we won't be required to respond with a high priority response now IS the time to unhitch from the glass teat and do some serious reading.
Start with Kearney's NWSS.
Then do some SERIOUS research into the (IIRC) dozen or so different reactors in the US. LEARN how they work, from WHY that hourglass tower is important (but NOT the most important building on the premises.....hint there are COAL plants with them on premises). Learn what systems WE have in place to prevent the issues being dealt with in Japan. Uhm why are there railroad tracks going directly up to the wall of every US reactor???
THEN you can look at what some of us are saying and understand that we're NOT blowing the concern off. REALLY!
We ARE much more into clear thought as to what is involved inside the room, the containment facility, the internal containment facility, the vessel.
Yes, there is a VALID CONCERN as to fallout POTENTIAL for the West Coast. the level of concern is, however, or should be roughly equivalent to the concern we have when we get on a TransContinental airplane flight.
Mickey, thanks for your work educating folks on the GE Reactor and it's systems.
Just because it has not yet hit you in the face does not mean that it has not hit the fan.
Japan radiation fears spark panic salt-buying in China
Long lines and mob scenes ensue at stores amid a clamor for iodized salt fueled by rumors of a radioactive cloud from Japan's quake-damaged nuclear plant and the belief that the salt would protect against radiation poisoning.
By David Pierson, Los Angeles Times
March 18, 2011
Reporting from Beijing— China tried to quell panic buying of iodized salt Thursday after grocery stores across the country were emptied of the seasoning by hordes of people hoping to ward off radiation poisoning after the nuclear accidents in Japan.
The clamor for salt reportedly started after rumors spread, possibly by cellphone text messaging, that China would be hit by a radioactive cloud from Japan's Fukushima No. 1 (Daiichi) nuclear plant, which had been badly damaged during last week's earthquake and tsunami.
People were under the false impression that consuming enough iodized salt would protect against radiation and that China's sea salt supplies would be contaminated as a result of the unfolding Japanese crisis.
That sparked long lines and mob scenes in major cities such as Shanghai, Beijing and Hangzhou.
more,
http://www.latimes.com/news/la-fg-ch...tory?track=rss
"The most intriguing point for the historian is that where history and legend meet."
"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who think they are free."
Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
Reuters Reuters Top News
Japan nuclear operator - Plans to restore power at Fukushima Daiichi reactors no.3, no.4 by March 20
55 seconds ago
“The quieter you become, the more you can hear.”
― Ram Dass
Ground based water spraying operation beginning live on NHK.
Looks like Unit #3.
http://wwitv.com/tv_channels/6810.htm
"The most intriguing point for the historian is that where history and legend meet."
"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who think they are free."
Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
It might be an interesting idea for a group of us to get together on a regular basis, maybe at the corkboard, to both teach and learn about it and to share information. If nothing else comes of this tragic incident, maybe at least it has woken some people up to the need to have some basic understanding of some of the technology that surrounds and provides for their every day lives and sometimes can even threaten it.
Perhaps if that was done, the next time there was some crisis that involved having an understanding of facts based on science and engineering, there wouldn't be so much hyperbole and woo-woo flying around.
It would take a little time and effort of course so I wouldn't expect a big crowd.
Just a thought.
"I think the most un-American thing you can say is, 'You can't say that.'” Garrison Keillor
"It's time to make your stand." - Mother Abigail
Thank you, Mickey Mouse.
The people I blame are not those on the front lines trying to do something.
This wasn't started by idiocy--it was started by an unforeseen natural disaster...but I think response in terms to reaction---QUICK reaction---to what was rapidly becoming an out-of-control EMERGENCY on the ground was DELAYED due to power company CEO's worried about how it would make them look, and then government officials worried about how it would make them 'look'---and so we end up with a situation where they kept simply REFUSING TO HEAR what their people on the ground were telling them....REFUSING to believe it really was, or could get, that bad....and by the time the INESCAPABLE TRUTH was staring them in the face, and refusing to go away, ti was too late.
The folks on the ground, who stood their post and tried to do the impossible with nothing or next to nothing, are the heroes in this.
The only "change" I CAN believe in: I Corinthians 15: 51-52!
WAKE ME WHEN IT'S OVER....
W7VOA
1. martyn_williams Seven firetrucks plan to spray 50 tonnes of water on reactor, same as yesterday - NHK less than a minute ago via TweetDeck Retweeted by W7VOA
2. JSDF trucks pouring water on Reactor 3 at Fukushima-1. 3 minutes ago via TweetDeck
"I think the most un-American thing you can say is, 'You can't say that.'” Garrison Keillor
"It's time to make your stand." - Mother Abigail
"martyn williams
# Radiation at Fukushima1 west gate (1.1kms from reactor): 309uSV/h @1530 Thu, 292uSv/h @2040 Thu and 271uSv/h @0730 Fri about 2 hours ago via TweetDeck
"I think the most un-American thing you can say is, 'You can't say that.'” Garrison Keillor
"It's time to make your stand." - Mother Abigail
Notice that they are not getting one inch closer than they have to.
The water is barely making it to the building.
"The most intriguing point for the historian is that where history and legend meet."
"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who think they are free."
Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
I don't know, maybe wishful thinking...
"martyn_williams
1. RT @chicoharlan: NHK commentator sees vapor rising from unit 3, guesses it indicates water blasting is hitting target - the spent fuel pool half a minute ago via TweetDeck
"I think the most un-American thing you can say is, 'You can't say that.'” Garrison Keillor
"It's time to make your stand." - Mother Abigail
Well here's a thought....
"Reuters
1. FLASH: IAEA Head Amano urges Japan PM Kan to give more detailed information on reactors 1 minute ago via web
"I think the most un-American thing you can say is, 'You can't say that.'” Garrison Keillor
"It's time to make your stand." - Mother Abigail
early quake warning wrong
“The quieter you become, the more you can hear.”
― Ram Dass
Note: Read the original at link it is is Ok after all. I still want to make this point.
You really have to watch what is coming from a few people at ticker. A couple of them are really loopy with the facts. While many are really great. This is happening on all the forums and you have to be careful about the information you read.
One on ticker was quoting Anderson copper as saying that 20msv at the plant was equal to one years exposure. I watched it at the same time this person did and CNN never said that. CNN said that normal radiation was about 3msv per year. And then then they even divided 20/3 and came up with about 7. And stated that 20 msv in one hour was like getting 7 times more radiation in one hour than you would normally get in one year. This person on ticker said that CNN had said 20 msv= normal radiation dosage for one year. And then went on to say that does not sound right- And that CNN must be wrong. Ticker poster got it wrong and reported it wrong, and no one challenged it. How one could get it that wrong blows my mind.
Be careful to confirm what you hear.
Last edited by BornFree; 03-18-2011 at 12:51 AM. Reason: Read something wrong.
But not likely to die free
I"ve been reading TF for days but lately people have been talking smack over there. Such as, only a few people died cleaning up Chernobyl, military men in the US who witnessed bomb tests suffered no harm (a friend's father was among them and died of a horrible cancer from the experience!), people concerned about radiation exposure are nuts, and that a little radiation is good for the health. Oh, and that no one suffered any harm from TMI. I read one woman (can't remember where, now -- here???) saying a relative had a baby with birth defects and doctors in the hospital near TMI knew that babies were being born with birth defects from the accident. I'm tired of reading through BS like that.
Asato Ma Sad Gamaya
Tamaso Ma Jyotir Gamaya
Leave illusion, come to the Truth
Leave the darkness, come to the Light
Well, my .02 for now is that this whole thing has been very hard for everyone to get up to speed with. When I look at the timing of announcements even from the U.S. government, and the chain of thought from some top scientific outlets, the scope of the situation was not known. Not sure it really still is by some authorities, even.
There was a lot of 'oh of course it's like this' from some in the science community early on, and then nuances came to light (as they continue to) and their point of view suddenly had to update. We're well beyond what some insisted early on.
So I think it all bears very close watching. I'm not worried per se but I do understand how and where the jet stream flows. I haven't personally done the math on the possibilities with that many fuel rods said in that plant, and I'm hopeful they'll figure something out, but this whole thing has been so full of surprises that watchfulness even from this distance is a must.
Most concerned for those in northern-central Japan.
(So so so so so many scientists disagreed on all this early on - even ones who actually work in the industry.)
For Fresh Black Elderberry Extract, Lomatium & More, see this thread in Swaps & Sales:
http://www.timebomb2000.com/vb/showthread.php?p=3361015




Please consider the possibility that what we have seen was THE MOST TIMELY RESPONSE PHYSICALLY POSSIBLE, given the fractured and pulverized infrastructure they were working within. The Japanese may well NOT have choppers able to lift locomotives in order to get the generation capability into place. they damn sure don't have ROADS in the area right now. ANd no RR's. I haven't a clue HOW they are getting generation capability into the area, just that it HAS to be a super-human effort right now, just to get TO the plants.
Someone else complained about not issuing an evac order early on. Issuing that kind of order that PHYSICALLY CAN NOT be complied with kills more than it saves.
Gang, the infrastructure of one of the most efficient, industrialized nations on the globe, in the affected area, resembles that of the Himalayas today.
Just because it has not yet hit you in the face does not mean that it has not hit the fan.

Excuse my ignorance but what is TF??
"I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself. A small bird will drop frozen dead from a bough without ever having felt sorry for itself." -DH Lawrence
"We do not see things as they are, we see things as we are." - The Talmud
Excellent points, MMouse. Thank you.
There are two things I wanted to add. I don't know if they are correct or not. First, I read about three days ago that the Japanese had indeed gotten a generator in there after the quake but the connections could not be fitted to get it going. Second was that the reporter named Martha in New York on ABC? (with Diane Sawyer) said that a worker had been charged with filling the diesel tanks shortly before the earthquake but had become distracted by another task and failed to do so. I would expect that all duties at these plants are stringently regulated and controlled and that one wouldn't simply forget to fill the gas tanks, so to speak, but that was the report.
Terry, TF is TickerForum.
"Your food stamps will be stopped effective March 1992 because we received notice that you passed away. May God bless you. You may reapply
if there is a change in your circumstances"
--Department of Social Services, Greenville, South Carolina
06.45: As parts of the Fukishima plant appear to have entered meltdown, Japanese engineers still toil frantically to avert a catastrophic release of radiation from the stricken facility.
Water cooling operations have resumed with military officials using a fleet of fire trucks, as workers racing against time to avert catastrophe ran a power supply cable to the site.
Japanese soldiers and firefighters from Tokyo, using 30 fire engines, began dousing 50 tons of sea water on reactor No. 3, the site of an explosion earlier this week.
07.00: The Foreign Office (FCO) is to begin evacuating Britons from disaster-struck Japan later on Friday. It has charted a plane out of Tokyo.
The U.S government has also began airlifting citizens from Japan along with military and diplomatic families.
07.20: Yukiya Amano, the head of the UN's International Atomic Energy Agency, says the situation at the stricken plant remains deeply worrying
07.25: The operator of Japan's crippled Fukushima nuclear power plant say have not ruled out encasing the facility's reactors in concrete.
Tokyo Electric Power Co told reporters that using concrete was an option, but that it would continue trying to cool the reactors for the time being.
Japan's nuclear safety agency said it could pursue the ultimate "Chernobyl solution" to contain the nuclear disaster by covering it in sand and encasing it in concrete.
The military has dismissed suggestions that it will use helicopters to cool the nuclear reactor fuel pool.
07.30: Below is a picture showing the storage pool, where overheating fuel rods threaten nuclear meltdown at the stricken power plant, exposed to the elements.
Smoke billows from wrecked unit 4 at Japan's crippled Fukushima Dai-ichi nuclear power plant in Okumamachi (Picture: AP)http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...-meltdown.html
07.40: Power may be restored to one of the crippled reactors at Japan’s damaged Fukushima Dai-Ichi power plant, possibly as early as today amid new hope that workers can prevent a meltdown and further radiation leaks.
But experts have cast doubt on the claims saying there could be difficulties restoring power to the plant.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...uake-live.html
Breaking News: Japan's nuke safety agency raised accident seriousness level to 5 from 4.
http://english.kyodonews.jp/news/2011/03/79294.html
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