CRIME Two Police Officers - they both did a great job

For fair use - from the AP

KILLEEN, Texas (AP) — One of two police officers who confronted the alleged Fort Hood killer says he shot Maj. Nidal Malik Hasan before kicking the man's weapon away, handcuffing him and ending the nation's worst killing spree on a military base.

Sgt. Mark Todd joined Sgt. Kimberly Munley, hailed as a hero for her actions, in a firefight with Hasan that lasted less than a minute. Todd, 42, was not wounded, but the exchange left Munley injured and Hasan critically wounded.

Seconds after Todd arrived on the scene, he said he saw a calm-looking Hasan, his gun drawn and his fingers pointing at people.

"He was firing at people as they were trying to run and hide," Todd told The Associated Press Saturday.

That's when Todd, a retired soldier who now works as a civilian police officer at Fort Hood, said he shouted at Hasan.

"I told him stop and drop your weapons. I identified myself as police and he turned and fired a couple of rounds at me. I didn't hear him say a word ... he just turned and fired."

There has been confusion since Thursday's rampage about whose bullets actually brought down Hasan, who was shot four times. At first, Munley's supervisor said it was her shot to Hasan's torso that leveled him, but Army officials would only say that an investigation was under way.

Munley was down by the time he engaged Hasan, Todd said. He wasn't sure if Munley had wounded the suspect, because "once he started firing at me, I lost track of her."

Todd said he fired his Beretta at Hasan. Hasan flinched, Todd said, then slid down against a telephone pole and fell on his back. Todd says he then heard bystanders say "two more, two more."

At first he thought they meant there were two more suspects, but realized they were urging him to fire two more rounds at Hasan, thinking he was still posing a threat.

Todd approached the suspect and saw that he still had a weapon in his hand. Todd kicked away the gun, which he said had a laser-aiming device attached to it.

"He was breathing, his eyes were blinking. You could tell that he was fading out. He didn't say anything. He was just kind of blinking," said Todd.

Todd handcuffed Hasan and checked to see if he was still alive. "He had a good pulse," said Todd. He also cut off pieces of Hasan's clothes so he could get first aid and noticed Hasan had gunshot wounds on his side and back.

From the time he got to the scene until Hasan dropped, the whole encounter lasted only about 30-45 seconds, Todd said. "It was pretty intense. There was a lot of people shouting, a lot of people giving directions," he said.

Munley, whose injuries weren't believed to be life threatening, won wide praise after the incident.

Fort Hood spokesman Col. John Rossi read a statement on Munley's behalf Saturday night. He said she and her family were thankful for the support and prayers that have come their way.

Rossi said Munley underwent a second surgery Saturday and is in good condition. She is most concerned that the wounded make a speedy recovery.

When Munley arrived at Metroplex Adventist Hospital in Killeen on Thursday she was rushed into surgery within minutes, said Dr. Scott McAninch. He said she had "lost a lot of blood," especially from a gunshot wound to her left leg that had hit an artery, and praised first responders for using a tourniquet.

"That pretty much saved her life," McAninch said.

___

Associated Press writers April Castro and Mike Baker contributed to this report.

I would have thought Fred would have posted this already.

Good job to both. In the end it won't matter much who's rounds stopped the guy. Both are responsible for shutting him down.

Good job.

Todd said he fired his Beretta at Hasan. Hasan flinched, Todd said, then slid down against a telephone pole and fell on his back. Todd says he then heard bystanders say "two more, two more."

Click to expand...

That should be our National Rally Cry, "two more, two more!"

Make sure these dirtbags go down -hard-.

This is why all officers need to be armed with some type of rifle with optics.

A .357 still has the best one shot stopping power for a side arm, there is a lot to be said for a good old fashioned 12 gage too...

At least these two did their jobs well regardless of what they were carrying. It was their action that counted.

.357? No. .454 Casull...

www.gunblast.com

All About "Stopping Power"


by R.K. Campbell

photography by R.K. Campbell

July 20th, 2005





Prepare for a shot of reality: most of what you have read in the popular press concerning handgun effectiveness have been written for entertainment purposes. We won’t discuss one-shot stops, magic bullets, or the 9mm vs. the .45. But we will recognize that there has been more discussion, research, experimentation and important development in handgun cartridges in the past twenty years than in the previous 200. At one time word of mouth was the sole barometer of cartridge effectiveness. The .45 Colt and the .44-40 worked, period, and the smaller calibers were recognized as last ditch propositions with more threat than real power. When gun writers of bygone days tested handgun cartridges, they measured penetration in pine boards. I well remember a high school project I observed in the mid 1970s in which Janie Hughston, daughter of pistolsmith T.N. Hughston, presented just such a test as her high school science project. It was well received, with the differences in .22 Long Rifle,.38 Special,.357 Magnum and .44 Magnum penetration clearly demonstrated. Those were different days...

Pine boards measured only one criteria: penetration. Penetration remains as a constant that cannot be compromised. Later, duct seal and clay were used to gauge the upset of expanding bullets. Both of these materials are unrealistic, overstating expansion dramatically while retarding penetration. Today, ballistic gelatin is heavily used in ammunition testing but is recognized as at best an approximation of the human body. Much emphasis is placed on handgun ammunition, and we should endeavor to make an intelligent choice. But the study of tactics and human reactions in a gun battle is more important and should receive the lion’s share of study. The most important single predictor of gun battle survival is training. The most important immediate factor is marksmanship. More often than not, gun battles are won with pretty ordinary equipment.

There are two basic camps as concerns handgun bullet study. One prefers to study actual shootings, the other will conduct laboratory tests of expansion and penetration. It is obvious that each shooting is a unique occurrence. By the same token, laboratory testing cannot duplicate differences in point of impact, attitude, muscle structure and the level of intoxication in a subject. Lab tests are scientific. Histories of shootings are far less reliable. They simply cannot be supported by scientific criteria. A scientist can only present his data and ask you to make your own interpretation. You are free to make your own tests to confirm or deny his results. That is the heart of the scientific outlook.

Stopping power studies are unreliable compared to laboratory results. It is strange to some of us to see results quoted as gospel in the popular press as if the various studies were the King James version of stopping power. In fact, they are fraught with problems. Worse, some go past reporting shooting histories and engage in predicting the effectiveness of one load or the other, often arriving at figures that are preposterous to those who have observed shooting results over a period of time. This is no surprise - the conclusions are based on flawed data. It is interesting that after quoting impossibly high claims for minor calibers, some ‘scholars’ have adjusted their figures downward to stay in touch with reality. This is after the published figures were met with incredulity. We have to remember that any peace officer or trained investigator who could not identify his sources would realize that his material did not meet a simple investigative standard. The validity of his work would be zero. On the other hand, as a former peace officer, I can understand the need for confidentiality. A respect for families and for those who simply do not wish their war stories printed must be maintained. By the same token, without due documentation and a willingness to open our files to investigators, we cannot expect our material to be accepted. Officers working trouble spots such as Area Six, Chicago, the Bronx in New York, or the Wall in California have seen the damage inflicted by most of the popular handgun calibers. They also realize that eyewitness accounts by those testifying in good faith often differ considerably in perspective. By applying normal investigative discipline to stopping power studies we find they come up short in reliability. Most do not even meet the standards set forth for finding fault in a motor vehicle accident!

Some trainers and armed civilians do not study the various debates on handgun effectiveness and concentrate upon marksmanship, tactics, and standard service grade equipment. When we criticize issue gear and equipment, we undermine an individual's confidence in his gear. Often, the man issued a 9mm pistol or a double action only type - neither of which I care for - is simply stuck with the pistol and must do the best he can. The man or woman behind the sights of these guns can make all of the difference.

Among the most inane comments ever to see print and one that did armed individuals great injustice was a pat pronouncement on shot placement. This individual told us that load selection is more important than shot placement! The point was that we cannot control shot placement but we can control load selection, and a good hot load might serve even if not well delivered. Anyone who has shot game knows better than that. This is even more true in self defense. Accuracy can make up for power. The reverse is seldom true. The bullet must be delivered to the right place, and that is the blood bearing organs. Only loss of blood and actual damage can be counted upon. A bullet that makes a peripheral hit simply cannot be counted on, whatever the caliber.

A look at the methodology of stopping power histories
Most stopping power histories we care to study are based upon flawed precepts. As an example, multiple strike histories are discarded. In other words, to be included in the data base, the incident must be one in which only one shot impacted the person shot.

A success is counted when the person shot stops his violent action or runs no more than ten feet after being shot. That is fine as far as it goes, but quite a number of shooting incidents involve more than one hit...especially in the minor calibers. One shot failures will be rare. If one shot fails, why would we not fire another? Trained shooters often make double taps on the target. The type of methodology used in many studies can accomplish only one thing, and that is to make smaller calibers look better. By excluding multiple hit failures then we have eliminated a great number of incidents. On the other hand, large caliber handguns will more often solve the fight with a single round and the numbers excluded will be less. As for medical reports, I have met experienced peace officers and coroners who could not agree upon the number of hits and exits on a felon’s body. In another case, a medical examiner taught a class I attended in which he spoke in glowing terms concerning a bullet that he felt performed in the ideal range. He showed us photos of the wound track from a shooting, and allowed us to examine a picture perfect recovered bullet. Some years after the class, I met the officer who fired that bullet. He stated that the subject took the shot, stopped his attack, but remained mobile and asked for an ambulance. He felt that had the man had the determination, he could of continued his assault. Opinions from the field and the lab can conflict.

The multiple shot question is pretty simple. When human beings fight for their life, they become excited. Often, they strike the object of their passion as hard and as many times as possible. This may mean five or six .38s, seven .45s or thirteen 9mms.If the felon goes down in the volley, the shooting is a success. If he is still standing, we have a failure to stop.

When we study what happens during gunfights, we should study the tactical information first and bullet performance second. We can study comparative bullet performance in the laboratory. No, gelatin is not flesh and bone, but it is useful in comparing one bullet to the other as a general outline of performance. The exact placement of the shot will matter the most. The threatening person who is shot may be under the influence of certain drugs that are based upon painkillers. When we compare the power available in handgun bullets to that of long guns such as the 12 gauge shotgun or the .223 rifle, we find that the ‘weak .38’ and the ‘strong .45’ are more alike than they differ!

Over time, the inescapable conclusion is that the key to handgun stopping power is marksmanship. But big bore handguns make a bigger hole and let out more air. This makes for more rapid blood loss, the only mechanism that can be counted on to do the business. Penetration must also be considered. We are looking for a balance of penetration and bullet expansion, and I tend to favor penetration. Sometimes, penetration is spoken of as a bad thing. We do not wish to let off a high power rifle round in an apartment complex, true, but on the other hand the level of penetration needed in a defensive handgun is often misunderstood. A projectile that has only five to seven inches of penetration in gelatin will not do the business. If the adversary has his arms extended and is firing at you, chances are good one of your bullets will meet his arms and may be stopped by heavy bones. If the bullet has to penetrate thick clothing such as a leather jacket, the chances of the bullet reaching the vital organs are greatly reduced. A bullet with a minimum of ten to twelve inches of penetration in flesh and bone is needed.

If light cover or vehicle glass is a consideration, even more penetration is needed.

When choosing a defensive handgun caliber and loading, take your own counsel and conduct tests that reveal bullet performance. Don’t take to hard a presentation that has as much credibility as little green men from Mars. I don’t believe in little green men but I do believe in big bore handguns.

Author’s perspective
The 9mm isn’t ok. Tell the fellow who took four 9mm soft point bullets and still managed to inflict a nasty wound that remains with me to this day, and gives my face ‘character’.

The .38 isn’t enough. I once shot a fellow in the lower leg who debated with me whether he had been hit at all until the blood ran from his shoe - then he commenced whimpering and crying.

I once took not the traditional icepick but thank God a nutpicker in the leg. It didn’t go in very far but instantly floored me. The shock to my system completely locked up my knee and thigh muscles. Yet, I did not even require stitches.

I once fired a single .45 caliber hardball round on the move, quickly, and the effect on the target, struck in the ribs, was immediate. All motion ceased - and he fully recovered within a few weeks.

On another occasion I suffered a failure to stop with a much vaunted .45 ACP 200 grain JHP very much in the vogue in the early 1980s, the darling of gunwriters. It penetrated two inches and expanded to a full one inch. Nice but ineffective. The second round produced compliance.

I observed the effect of the .357 Magnum 125 grain JHP once over the top of my own sights. The effect was gruesome. A solid hit that produced a severe blood flow AND dramatic effect from the rear, including lung tissue thrown perhaps three feet.

R.K. Campbell

the casull round is far superior to the .357.

Dennis Olson said:

the casull round is far superior to the .357.

Click to expand...

Dennis
If you can hold it......

This is from www.Chuckhawks.com

The .454 Casull

By Chuck Hawks




Illustration courtesy of Hornady Mfg. Co.
If you are a .45 Magnum person, this is your cartridge. The .454 Casull was designed by Dick Casull and Jack Fullmer in the 1950's as a cartridge for big game hunting. Its case is basically a longer (by approximately 1/10th inch) and much stronger version of the .45 Colt case, and a .454 Casull pistol can also shoot .45 Colt ammunition, much as a .44 Magnum revolver can also shoot .44 Special ammunition. The SAAMI did not accept the .454 Casull as a standard cartridge until 1998, when the maximum average pressure was set at 65,000 psi. The highest pressure shown in the Hodgdon Data Manual using the older copper crusher method is 55,000 cup. These pressures are similar to those of the .300 Weatherby Magnum rifle cartridge!

.454 Casull factory loaded ammunition is available from Federal (300 grain JSP at 1630 fps), Freedom Arms (240, 260, and 300 grain jacketed hard-core bullets), Magtech (260 grain JSP at 1800 fps), and Winchester (250 grain JHP at 1300 fps, 260 grain JHP at 1800 fps, 300 grain JSP at 1625 fps). These velocities are all taken in 7.5" vented (revolver) test barrels.

For handgun hunting, most reloaders will choose jacketed bullets ranging from 200 to 300 grains, depending on the intended purpose. Use the conventional 200-260 grain JHP bullets for deer hunting, and the tough 260-300 grain premium bullets for large game. Note that the .454 Casull cartridge is designed for use with small rifle primers due to the extremely high pressure at which it operates.

Most .452" bullets are designed for optimum performance at .45 Colt velocities and should not be driven to the maximum velocity possible from a .454 pistol. Naturally, magnum pistol powders like Hodgdon H110 and Winchester 296 are best for the .454.

The Hodgdon Data Manual No. 26 shows the following muzzle velocities using Freedom Arms JHP bullets in front of maximum loads of H110 powder sparked by Remington 7 1/2 primers. The .454 achieved a MV of 2090 fps with the 240 grain bullet in front of 39.0 grains of H110, 2005 fps with the 260 grain bullet in front of 37.0 grains of H110, and 1780 fps with the 300 grain bullet in front of 31.5 grains of H110 powder. All of these loads were chronographed in a 7.5" pressure test barrel. The maximum average pressures of these loads was between 53,800 cup and 55,000 cup.

The price for all of this power is increased recoil, greatly increased recoil. The .454 generates almost 5 times the recoil of the .45 Long Colt, and about 75% more recoil energy than the .44 Magnum. (See the Handgun Recoil Table for specifics.) It is way out of the class of all but the most experienced and recoil tolerant shooters.

Note: A full length article about the .454 Casull can be found on the Handgun Cartridge Page.

.357? No. .454 Casull...

AS IF anyone working for someone who issues their duty weapons has any choice in what they carry... c'mon, folks. Get real.

What matters is that these two ran down someone who was shooting at them and SHOT HIM TO THE GROUND. That's worth commenting on, not a bunch of BS about calibers or weapons or ammo. In this case it was the STONES they had that mattered.

dd

Dozdoats said:

.357? No. .454 Casull...

AS IF anyone working for someone who issues their duty weapons has any choice in what they carry... c'mon, folks. Get real.

What matters is that these two ran down someone who was shooting at them and SHOT HIM TO THE GROUND. That's worth commenting on, not a bunch of BS about calibers or weapons or ammo. In this case it was the STONES they had that mattered.

dd

Click to expand...

You are absolutly correct.....

The issue was raised about the "best" round for stopping someone. to me, that is a different issue that a "duty weapon." Most would agree that a .357 is the best overall DUTY-SIZED weapon. But the Casull is by far the superior round. A few years ago I read an article about hunting Russian wild boar (1000 lbs and up). Historically, they had hunted it with a .44 magnum. The average was FOUR SHOTS to put one down.

Then they hunted with the Casull. Average was ONE SHOT.

Now, that's freakin' firepower.


Note that I own a Taurus Raging Bull, which has factory barrel compensation and a Pachmeyer-style rubber grip. (Previous to this, I owned a Ruger Redhawk .44 magnum with no compensation and a wood grip.) My perceived recoil with the .454 was IDENTICAL to the Redhawk.

FYI.

Dennis Olson said:

The issue was raised about the "best" round for stopping someone. to me, that is a different issue that a "duty weapon." Most would agree that a .357 is the best overall DUTY-SIZED weapon. But the Casull is by far the superior round. A few years ago I read an article about hunting Russian wild boar (1000 lbs and up). Historically, they had hunted it with a .44 magnum. The average was FOUR SHOTS to put one down.

Then they hunted with the Casull. Average was ONE SHOT.

Now, that's freakin' firepower.


Note that I own a Taurus Raging Bull, which has factory barrel compensation and a Pachmeyer-style rubber grip. (Previous to this, I owned a Ruger Redhawk .44 magnum with no compensation and a wood grip.) My perceived recoil with the .454 was IDENTICAL to the Redhawk.

FYI.

Click to expand...

Actually I'd take a high cap 9mm with quality 115/124 grain hollow points over a .357 mag for a duty gun. It gives me form 2 to 3 times the ammo on board, quicker recovery time between shoots, and less felt recoil, which allows for better placement, plus I the extra rounds on board give you the ability to engage the multiple opponents that are the norm instead of the exception these days. I could the job with a 357 maggie wheel gun but the 9mm is the better tool for the job. The .44 or 454 are over penetrating to the max as well as may blow through thin skin animals of 200 pounds or so which is what we in the biz and citizens in defensive situations are trying to stop. Now a slow moving say 1000-1050 fps 200-250 grain bulletin 40 caliber or better is a good stopper but it just ain't as sexy.

I remember Jeff Cooper, G. Gorden Liddy and other's saying that attitude is everything in a fight.

One simply has to get mad, real mad and show no quarter until it is over.

The proper training and motivation is everything.

Dennis Olson said:

Historically, they had hunted it with a .44 magnum. The average was FOUR SHOTS to put one down.

Then they hunted with the Casull. Average was ONE SHOT.

Now, that's freakin' firepower.


..............FYI.

Click to expand...

hmmm... AVERAGE one shot? that would have to mean:
A. It never takes more than one shot or
B. even more unlikely, sometimes the boar would die without a shot being fired

Not saying the Majority of the time it isn't one shot... but average is a mathematical calculation




That being said, to charge the gunman and bring them down risking oneslef is the definaition of hero. I don't care if she's active duty or not, that girl deserves the purple heart, and presidential (liek that means anything) recognition. The guy is a hero too...maybe more so, but they both need raised up and paraded around!