Comet Holmes brightens by factor of 500,000 in 24 hours - now visible to naked eye

Warren Bone said:

Sounds like this thing is exploding before our very eyes. A big-bang emanating from one single star. It IS a star, isn't it?

warren.

Click to expand...

Look at that - you just summarized the entire thread in three sentences.

"It IS a star, isn't it?"
That my friend is the million dollar question.

LOL - good work! My hat is off to you.

HD

Well, thank you.

You see, by my staying away from all the discussion and pictures and speculation I only have objective knowledge to call on regarding this phenomenon.

(But I bet if I say it's a star and is on its way to exploding (there's a scientific word for that but I don't recall it right at the moment)...I bet that won't be the end of the thread!)

Very interesting topic.

warren.
PS...I'm not an astronomer; but I once considered being one -- until I found out how much high math I'd be required to take in college. Ended THAT consideration real quick!

TONIGHT'S UPDATE:

Not a lot of updates around. I think now the problem is not the conjunction with Mirfak (from our vantage point) but the full moon, which is going to make visibility harder now that the comet is fading.

There was a spaceweather update and photo:

http://www.spaceweather.com/
(fair use applies)

COMET 17P/HOLMES: "Tonight the Moon was so bright it made Comet Holmes difficult to see with the unaided eye," reports Günther Strauch of Borken, Germany. "I decided to make this composite photo of the Moon and comet both shot to the same scale with my Canon 20D."

(Picture below)

His image shows the main reason why exploding Comet Holmes is fading from view: it is spread out and increasingly dilute. Bright moonlight only makes matters worse. Indeed, the comet may become very difficult to see in the nights ahead as the Moon becomes full on Saturday, Nov. 24th. Solution: use a backyard telescope to pierce the glare. With the assistance of a finderscope, the comet remains easy to locate in the constellation Perseus right beside the bright star Mirfak: sky map.

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Direct link to photo:
http://www.spaceweather.com/comets/...uch1.jpg?PHPSESSID=gobh10jvjm5gen24rgf6jbc054
(fair use applies)

rafter said:

Maybe a dumb question, but will the earth be going through this halo (dust or what ever it is)?

And should we be alarmed at what it might contain?

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Heliobas Disciple said:

Not a dumb question. I hate math, but there is an equation that can be done to figure out how long it would take the dust cloud to reach us if the comet keeps growing at the rate it's been growing at. I think someone did the math a month ago and it was months if not years away.

Keep in mind - we are moving away from the comet - and I think at some point we could actually be moving away at a faster rate than the comet can grow - meaning we'd have to swing around to meet the comet again within its six year orbit and it would have to maintain the growth all that time.

So short answer - highly unlikely. VERY highly unlikely right now.

Click to expand...

OK - synchronicity being what it is, folks over at GLP were wondering the same thing today and they came up with two answers. Spring 2017 or Spring 2020 is when the comet dust could hit Earth if the dust cloud is still around Holmes.

Here's a graph the poster who came up with 2020 made. The blue line shows the closeness of Earth to Holmes as they both continue their orbits, and the purple line shows the growth of Holmes.

Hope this helps answer your question.

HD

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y77/pointyhat/graph.gif
(fair use applies)

Tonight's photos.

First one from Germany, taken on the 19th. I flipped this photo in photoshop to make it a correct view as seen from here.

http://www.martin-wagner.org/
(fair use applies)

Second one from Hungary on November 20th. Did not need to be flipped.
http://www.spaceweather.com/comets/holmes/22nov07/Erno-Berko1.jpg
(fair use applies)

Heliobas Disciple said:

OK - synchronicity being what it is, folks over at GLP were wondering the same thing today and they came up with two answers. Spring 2017 or Spring 2020 is when the comet dust could hit Earth if the dust cloud is still around Holmes.

Here's a graph the poster who came up with 2020 made. The blue line shows the closeness of Earth to Holmes as they both continue their orbits, and the purple line shows the growth of Holmes.

Hope this helps answer your question.

HD

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y77/pointyhat/graph.gif
(fair use applies)

Click to expand...

that graph seems to imply that the size of the comet's dust/gas cloud doesn't change, when we all know that it will continue growing until it appears to disappear, but will still continue growing anyways. admittedly, once the gas/dust cloud reaches us, the molecules will be decidedly less concentrated, but they will be there nonetheless.

jed turtle said:

that graph seems to imply that the size of the comet's dust/gas cloud doesn't change, when we all know that it will continue growing until it appears to disappear, but will still continue growing anyways. admittedly, once the gas/dust cloud reaches us, the molecules will be decidedly less concentrated, but they will be there nonetheless.

Click to expand...

Apologies if I didn't explain the graph correctly. The purple line is showing the expansion of the comet at 700 meters/sec, which is its current growth rate. That's why it's moving up in the graph. Had it been staying the same size, that purple line would be flat.

Of course, there's no telling if the expansion rate will stay at that rate, increase, decrease in speed or just stop altogether. So that chart is really - 'if all things stay the same' - when it would intersect with Earth.

hope that helps!

BTW, I agree the molecules will be less concentrated if and when that were to happen, but I give it a really small chance/if any chance of the comet still growing in 10-13 years.

Actually, if I had to hazard a guess, if it were to continue to grow at that rate - I'd say it either gets so thin that the solar wind breaks it apart and the dust forms a tail instead of that sphere it's now holding all that dust in, or it reaches a point where it no longer spreads, but thickens up within the sphere instead. There's no scientific reason (*that I understand) why it would do that so that's kind of way out there as a theory goes but Jim Mccanney is saying this is a minor planet in formation so I'm guessing that's what he suspects will happen using his comet model electrical universe theory. (although I'd like to ask Mr. Mccanney how a sphere that's larger than the sun could become a 'minor' planet. Frankly I'd call it a major planet if it's larger than Jupiter).

From Jim Mccanney's November 22nd update: "so yes ... since October 23, 2007 ... we have a new minor planet forming in the solar system ..." (see: http://www.jmccanneyscience.com/ )

HD

Tonight's Update:

From http://www.skyandtelescope.com/observing/home/10775326.html
(fair use applies)

November 22nd: The comet continues to enlarge and fade. It's now moving away from Alpha Persei night by night. The Moon is full on the nights of the 23rd and 24th; this is when the moonlight interference will be worst. But on Monday the 26th a window of dark sky opens up again between the end of twilight and moonrise (depending on the latitude where you live). This dark window lasts for about an hour later each night after that.

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Richard Hoagland was on C2C tonight (first hour) and was asked what he thought about Comet Holmes. This is a radio show listened to by millions, and Richard is considered by the show to be their NASA expert, so I think this belongs in tonight's update.

Hoagland stated that he believes there is a secret space program much further advanced than NASA and that they blew up Holmes. He didn't theorize as to why they would want to blow it up (?), just that he thinks they did. Now I think this is a woo-woo theory, but it is a national radio show and he is an 'expert' so I'm posting it.

Something he said that was interesting to me, probably because I agree with this part, is that it is so cold out there, no way did it heat up and rupture a gas vent.

He then went on to say that it exploded in the same exact spot that Hyakutake and Hale Bopp intersected exactly one year apart from each other in Perseus (in 1996 and 1997 respectively). It is my understanding (and I'm obviously not an expert like Mr. Hoagland) that that intersection happened by Algol in Perseus, and Holmes did not rupture near Algol, and in fact won't be near Algol until some time in January, so I'm wondering if he was exxagerating that point when he said 'exact same spot' or if the source who I read got it wrong when they initially talked about the two other comets intersecting by Algol.

see: http://www.eaglestation.com/medusa.html

(also see graphic from that site below, which shows where they intersected. In photo-shop I added a mark to show where Holmes brightened)

He then brought up that on October 23rd, which is the night Holmes brightened, the space shuttle was launched. He said there was no way you could calculate the odds of all of these things happening (the same spot as the intersection of Hyakutake and Hale-Bopp and the space shuttle launch) unless somebody is doing this.

I personally don't think he made a good argument. Especially since it was my understanding that those comets crossed by Algol - not close to where Holmes blew up, so there are no odds to be confounded by. And I don't believe there is a secret space program, and I don't know why even if there were, they'd blow up Holmes. However, there are some on this thread who also contemplate it was blown up by us, so for you, this is a heavy-weight in your camp

HD

Graphic is of the intersection of Hyakutake and Hale-Bopp. Hyaakutake is seen in yellow dots, Hale Bopp in rust dots. They formed a cross on April 11th - exactly one year apart, which is remarkable, but has nothing to do with Holmes, at least not yet. Holmes will be in that area in January - which is when it's expected to rebrighten, so it may be worth revisiting this intersection at the time.

Here's an interesting article that's much more scientific. I don't agree with the conclusions in this article either, but at least they're in the realm of 'reality'.

http://www.sciencenews.org/articles/20071117/fob5.asp
(fair use applies)

Flare-Up: Comet Holmes' surprise bloom
Ron Cowen

In less than 24 hours, a small, faint comet became 400,000 times brighter late last month, blossoming into a fuzzy, starlike apparition visible to the naked eye. Now, 3 weeks after its spectacular flare-up, Comet 17P/Holmes remains visible to the naked eye in the constellation Perseus, which stands nearly overhead from the United States soon after midnight.

Many comets brighten as they near the sun. Heat vaporizes volatile ices on a comet's surface, throwing out fine, highly reflective dust particles in the process. But Holmes, which has a 6.88-year orbit, never gets any closer to the sun than twice Earth's distance. Even more puzzling, the brightening took place about 5 months after the comet's closest approach.

The rapid brightening suggests that a layer of material lifted off the comet and disintegrated, says Zdenek Sekanina of NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena, Calif. The resulting dusty halo may be "microscopic dust grains originating from the cataclysmic breakup of the jettisoned layer," he notes in the Nov. 3 circular of the International Astronomical Union.

The entire nucleus of the comet may consist of many such fragile, stacked layers, cemented by ice, Sekanina speculates. In support of his model, he cites observations by ground-based telescopes of parallel streaks of material at some distance from the comet's nucleus. The streaks could be dust trails left behind by a disintegrating layer, he suggests.

The 5-month delay between the comet's closest approach and the outburst may represent the time required for the outer layer to soak up solar heat and transmit it to an underlying region of ice, Sekanina says. Only when the ice explosively vaporizes does the outer layer fly off.

An English astronomer discovered the comet in the fall of 1892, when it had undergone a similar sudden brightening about 5 months after its closest approach to the sun. About 2.5 months later, in January 1893, Holmes had an additional outburst. It then remained quiet until recently. For decades, the comet was so faint that astronomers lost track of it between 1906 and 1964.

Could the newly brightened Holmes, now fading, get a second wind this January, as it did 114 years ago?

Brian Marsden of the Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics in Cambridge, Mass., thinks the 1892–1893 events and the current outburst may be linked. One possibility is that some debris from the older set of outbursts fell back onto the comet, choking off activity for more than a century. Last month, internal pressure from vaporizing ice might have finally become strong enough to eject the fallen debris, says Hal Weaver of Johns Hopkins Applied Physics Laboratory in Laurel, Md.

Recent images of Holmes from the Hubble Space Telescope show three spurs of dust emanating from the nucleus on Oct. 29. An Oct. 31 observation indicates that the comet had another, much tinier, outburst of dust on Oct. 30, notes Weaver.

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Here's another scientific article.

http://www.skyandtelescope.com/news/11372856.html
(fair use applies)

What Happened to Comet Holmes?
November 15, 2007
by J. Kelly Beatty

Except for the double outburst observed during and shortly after its discovery in 1892, periodic Comet 17P/Holmes has been a run-of-the-mill interloper from the outer solar system. So why, professional and amateur skywatchers have been asking out loud, did it erupt so suddenly and dramatically in late October?

One possible explanation that's almost certainly not correct is that it was struck by an asteroidal fragment. Although this comet occupies the realm between Mars and Jupiter, its orbital inclination (19°) actually keeps 17P/Holmes well separated from most denizens of the asteroid belt. Moreover, counting the outbursts that occurred during and after its discovery in 1892, three collisions would be needed to explain all the activity.

Another unlikely scenario, proposed by the late Fred Whipple in 1984, is that the nucleus was accompanied through space by one or more satellites that "reentered" and released a torrent of dust and gas when they struck the main mass in 1892.

Other comets have erupted like this before — Comet 41P/Tuttle-Giacobini-Kresak's performance in 1973 comes to mind — though not as dramatically. Most likely, repeated warmings by the Sun caused a dusty, ice-free "crust" to form on the nucleus, sealing the interior. Over time the pressure beneath this seal steadily grew as once-frozen ice became gas, eventually breaking through and sending large chunks of crust flying into space that quickly disintegrated into microscopic dust.

At least that's the leading hypothesis. Realistically, we may never know the cause. This comet's behavior, particularly the perfectly spherical outer halo, has confounded even the experts. Remarkably, 17P/Holmes has mimicked almost perfectly the behavior seen during its discovery 115 years ago. "I have never in my experience as a cometary scientist seen such a symmetric structure in emitted material," admits Carey Lisse of Johns Hopkins University's Applied Physics Laboratory.

Colleague Harold Weaver adds, "That offset blob was very unusual. Some kind of large chunk must have come off and disintegrated." Comet theorist Zdenek Sekanina (Jet Propulsion Laboratory) estimates that this "megaburst," most likely triggered late on October 23rd (Universal Time), shot 100 million tons of dust into space. To put this in perspective, Mount St. Helens unleashed a 500-million-ton ash cloud during its catastrophic 1980 eruption.

Studies with ground-based observatories show that Comet Holmes has been emitting a rather typical combination of water and other compounds. Weaver, Lisse, and others managed to commandeer the Hubble Space Telescope for one orbit's observations on each of three nights in late October and early November. The blandness of these images argues that the nucleus didn't break apart wholesale, as was the fate of Comet 73P/Schwassmann-Wachmann 3 in April 2006.

Follow-up infrared observations with the Spitzer Space Telescope on November 13th should provide some compositional constraints on the vast cloud of dust particles that made Comet Holmes appear so bright.

"The Spitzer spectra show that the dust coming off the nucleus is fine-grained silicates, with a mineralogy similar to Hale-Bopp's," says William Reach (Caltech). The observations, spanning wavelengths of 5 to 40 microns, targeted the area closest to the nucleus. Unfortunately, Spitzer didn't get to check out the blob of matter seen moving outward soon after the outburst because, Reach adds, "at the time of our proposal we didn't know where that stuff was going to be!"

One clue to what has triggered the outburst now — and not, say, during its previous appearance in 1999 — may be its vacillating perihelion distance. As master comet chronicler Gary Kronk noted recently in an online posting, "The comet's orbit was altered by Jupiter during December 1908 so that the perihelion distance increased from 2.12 AU to 2.34 AU. The comet was lost until 1964 and it remained faint during that apparition."

"An approach to Jupiter during April 1968 decreased the perihelion distance back to 2.16 AU," Kronk continues, "but no outbursts were observed at any apparition between 1972 and 2000. Another approach to Jupiter in January of 2004 decreased the perihelion distance to 2.05 AU, [followed by] an outburst at the very next apparition."

Coincidence? Perhaps not!

Click to expand...

Tonight's pictures:

First one from Austria on the 22nd:
http://www.kometarium.com/images/17p_2211_250mm.jpg
(fair use applies)


Second one from the 20th: (I should have flipped this one, it's sideways, to get proper orientation, flip it counterclockwise 90 degrees)
http://www.astroarts.jp/gallery/comet/17p/gallery/071120_005270_1.jpg

HD

?

HD,
Do you know where Mars is in relation to Holmes on the 27th?

Thanks,
Gib

Giblin said:

HD,
Do you know where Mars is in relation to Holmes on the 27th?

Thanks,
Gib

Click to expand...

It's below it/Mirfak (they're conjunct now) and Capella (the really bright star below Perseus). When I could still see Holmes, Mars would rise a few hours after Holmes did. Mars is very bright right now - you can't miss it. Holmes is no longer naked-eye visible unless you are in an area that has no light pollution. (the full moon isn't helping the situation either).

In case that didn't really help - here's a graphic

HD

Thank you,
I have a poor view so was wondering about Mars' position as a planet associated with War with the meeting in Annapolis on Tues.
Gb

If I'm remembering correctly, there have been 2 posters who have brought up the Wormwood possibility for Comet Holmes. For them, and anyone else who is interested in that aspect, you can check out this link:

http://wingswatchman.org/WordPress/2007/11/20/wormwood-star-portents-of-devastation-or-hope/


There has also been discussion here about the electrical universe theory. This is an interesting article that describes the plasma universe. Quote from article linked to below:

"Birkeland's theory describes how comets interact with "corpuscle rays" (the plasma of the interplanetary medium), charge electrically and produce jets that result in their erosion, and, other characteristics such as the deflection of a comet's tail, to dark spaces in the coma."

http://www.plasma-universe.com/index.php/Comets:_Kristian_Birkeland's_theory


HD

Giblin said:

Thank you,
I have a poor view so was wondering about Mars' position as a planet associated with War with the meeting in Annapolis on Tues.
Gb

Click to expand...

Good outside-the-box thinking! I have very ominous feelings about Annapolis, but I didn't think of Mars in relation to it. (The Holmes connection was really well done, I'll try to find the post and link it here). I don't think anything will happen at the conference itself, it's the aftermath and I'm sure some astrologer somewhere will do the chart for the conference. Of course, they won't include Holmes in a chart like that so we'll have to remember that on our own.

HD

ETA: see this post about Holmes and Annapolis

http://www.timebomb2000.com/vb/showpost.php?p=2611602&postcount=55

Another recent scientific article on Holmes. If you are reading all these scientific articles as I post them, you will notice they contradict each other. That's because no one knows for sure what caused this, and everyone's educated guess is as good as the next person's.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,519187,00.html
(fair use applies)

COMET CONUNDRUM
The Monster of the Night Skies

The comet 17P/Holmes has astronomers around the world scratching their heads in confusion. The heavenly body just keeps getting bigger -- and is now twice the diameter of our sun.

Comets, of course, are no rarity. And it seems like every couple of years or so, one becomes big and bright enough that it can easily be seen from Earth. But the behavior of 17P/Holmes has mystified both hobby astronomers and professionals around the globe.

Rather than shrinking as it gets further from the sun as most comets do, this one just keeps getting bigger and brighter. At the beginning of the week, the cloud of dust and gas surrounding the comet's core -- called the coma -- had already grown larger than the sun. Now, just a few days later, the coma's diameter is twice that of the sun -- the dust cloud measures some 2.7 million kilometers across whereas the sun is just 1.39 million kilometers across. And there is no sign that it is finished.

"The comet is now a long ways away, but the dust cloud is still growing," Dr. Maciej Mikolajewski from the Torun Center for Astronomy at Nicolaus Copernicus University told SPIEGEL ONLINE. "It's the first time I've ever seen such a thing. I've never seen such a bright comet in my life."

Even more interesting than the celestial body's sheer size, however, is that scientists aren't totally sure why it suddenly exploded in brightness throughout October and November. The comet is no longer close enough to the Earth to be readily visible without a telescope, but the head scratching in the scientific community continues.

Mikolajewski, whose institute has been following the path of the comet for more than a month, says that a chemical reaction within the core of 17P/Holmes could be to blame for the explosion in size and brightness. Or, he says, it could have run into an asteroid as it sped through the inner part of the solar system. "Both of those hypotheses are possible," he says.

Frank Brenker, a comet researcher at the University of Frankfurt, likewise thinks that the comet may have run into something. "The impact theory is most plausible," he told SPIEGEL ONLINE. Most comets do gain in size and brightness as they get closer to the sun. But this comet, oddly, doubled in size as it was traveling away from the sun, making it unlikely that the sun was to blame.

The comet 17P/Holmes was discovered in 1892 by the British astronomer Edwin Holmes. That year, the comet was briefly bright enough to be visible with the naked eye before disappearing once again into the nether reaches of the solar system. Every seven years, the four-kilometer wide chunk of ice swings through the center part of the solar system before once again being catapulted back out into space.

Comets often achieve impressive sizes when they are warmed by the sun, and tails can sometimes stretch for thousands of kilometers. "A gigantic comet is nothing all that special," confirms Ulrich Christensen, head of comet and planet research at the Max Planck Institute for Solar System Research. "But a diameter larger than the sun is certainly unusual."

It could be that researchers never find out exactly what happened to 17P/Holmes. It has been speeding away from the Earth ever since Nov. 7 according to the US space administration NASA. It will be back in 2014.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the links HD.
I was thinking hat Holmes might intersect Mars' as a sign of War. But it doesn't look that way to me. I wish I had finished college. I loved Earth Science in High School.
Gib

Since I missed last night, and I'm here now, I'll post the pictures of the day late for yesterday and early for tonight.

HD

First picture: November 24th, Germany.
http://www.fotowald.de/displayimage.php?pos=-1413
(fair use applies)

Second picture also from the 24th, also from Germany.
(no link)

Giblin said:

Thanks for the links HD.
I was thinking hat Holmes might intersect Mars' as a sign of War. But it doesn't look that way to me. I wish I had finished college. I loved Earth Science in High School.
Gib

Click to expand...

It still can - you'd have to do a chart for the progression of Mars through the night sky and match it to the progression of Holmes. Here's the progression of Holmes, if you find one for Mars, go ahead and post it.

If you're looking for other astrological/or/symbolic/or/religious implications and Holmes intersecting stars, I think the date to watch will be when it intersects with Algol, which is mid January. (see my post a few posts up and the link to the significance of the intersection of Hyakutake and Hale-Bopp over Algol).

But if it intersects with the path of Mars, for sure I'd like to know that date, as I'm sure would many others.

HD

Comet Holmes:
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/comet.html
Snip:
Comets signify realignment of trade, financial and political arrangements with an initial disruption in the system. Later on, after ignition, that is transit by Sun or Mars, the winners and losers become apparent. Even so, the effects may linger for some time with the perihelion as a sensitive point for many years, sometimes centuries. The perihelion degree is then brought forward as a sensitive point and added to subsequent figures. Comets, when they configure significators in an horary or natal figure are always significant. When one appears in the birth year it is always to be included as part of the natal delineation, and they are always useful in mundane maps. In essence they signify new connections and disruption which brings new opportunities. Some benefit from their effects, some suffer, and some hardly notice them (as their significators are affected).

The effects of comets are first noticeable in those places and enterprises ruled by the sign of their perihelion; after this look for effects in the quadruplicity. For example, Comet Kahoutek made its perihelion in Sagittarius. Chile is of that sign and suffered a coup of its legally elected government and the assassination of its president. The auto industry suffered due to fuel shortages. The members of the Oil Cartel led by Saudi Arabia (another Sagittarius) benefited. Effects were not far behind for the other mutable signs and then spread generally.

Here is something else I found:
http://astrodynamics.blogspot.com/20...ain-funky.html
This snip was found in the comments to that article:
10/01/2007 - 8 Gem 10 (+25 50'N) 17th magnitude
10/04/2007 - 8 Gem 19 (+26 18'N)
10/07/2007 - 8 Gem 23 (+26 45'N) SRx - Conjunct Ain [Epsilon Tauri]
10/10/2007 - 8 Gem 23 (+27 13'N)
10/13/2007 - 8 Gem 18 (+27 39'N)
10/15/2007 - 8 Gem 13 (+27 56'N)
10/16/2007 - 8 Gem 09 (+28 04'N)
10/17/2007 - 8 Gem 05 (+28 12'N)
10/18/2007 - 8 Gem 01 (+28 20'N)
10/19/2007 - 7 Gem 56 (+28 28'N)
10/20/2007 - 7 Gem 50 (+28 35'N)
10/21/2007 - 7 Gem 44 (+28 43'N)
10/22/2007 - 7 Gem 38 (+28 50'N)
10/23/2007 - 7 Gem 31 (+28 57'N)
10/24/2007 - 7 Gem 23 (+29 03'N) Comet begins to flare to 2.5 magnitude
10/25/2007 - 7 Gem 16 (+29 10'N)
10/26/2007 - 7 Gem 07 (+29 16'N)
10/27/2007 - 6 Gem 57 (+29 22'N)
10/28/2007 - 6 Gem 47 (+29 28'N)
10/29/2007 - 6 Gem 38 (+29 34'N)
10/30/2007 - 6 Gem 28 (+29 39'N)
10/31/2007 - 6 Gem 18 (+29 44'N)
11/01/2007 - 6 Gem 08 (+29 48'N)

11/04/2007 - 5 Gem 36 (+30 01'N)
11/07/2007 - 4 Gem 59 (+30 12'N)
11/10/2007 - 4 Gem 20 (+30 20'N)
11/13/2007 - 3 Gem 39 (+30 24'N)
11/16/2007 - 2 Gem 57 (+30 26'N)
11/19/2007 - 2 Gem 14 (+30 21'N)
11/22/2007 - 1 Gem 32 (+30 14'N)
11/25/2007 - 0 Gem 49 (+30 05'N)
11/28/2007 - 0 Gem 08 (+30 05'N)
12/01/2007 - 29 Tau 27 (+29 52'N)
12/04/2007 - 28 Tau 49 (+29 38'N)
12/07/2007 - 28 Tau 13 (+29 20'N)
12/10/2007 - 27 Tau 40 (+29 01'N)
12/13/2007 - 27 Tau 12 (+28 39'N)
12/16/2007 - 26 Tau 43 (+28 17'N)
12/19/2007 - 26 Tau 20 (+27 53'N)
12/22/2007 - 26 Tau 00 (+27 27'N)
12/25/2007 - 25 Tau 44 (+27 01'N)
12/28/2007 - 25 Tau 32 (+26 34'N)
12/31/2007 - 25 Tau 23 (+26 06'N)
01/03/2008 - 25 Tau 19 (+25 37'N)
01/06/2008 - 25 Tau 18 (+25 09'N) SD
01/09/2008 - 25 Tau 21 (+24 40'N)

Walrus Whisperer said:

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/comet.html

Click to expand...

Thanks for the link WW. That was a really interesting article.

While hunting down more info on Mars and Holmes (didn't find any), I did find another astrological type article that some may be interested in. Lots of great graphics of the orbit of Holmes and Earth and the Sun. I haven't read the full article yet, but it doesn't look 'scientific', so I'll just provide the link.

http://lunarplanner.com/Snippets/snippet.07.11.01-CometHolmes.html


Also, in my hunt, I came across this amazing picture. I didn't find the description, but it's from November 23rd. It looks like a comparison of the true size of the moon vs. the true size of Comet Holmes (if they were side by side/equidistant from earth). WOW.

http://forum.astronomie.de/phpapps/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showpic&id=1874
(fair use applies)

Amazing

Headsup! Comet Holmes discussed tonight on Coast to coast AM!

rafter said:

Amazing

Click to expand...

Isn't it? I emailed that picture to a bunch of people. I almost made it my wallpaper, but I have one from digitalblashpemy that so reminds me of Comet Holmes I won't change it. It's not really of Comet Holmes, and it was done long before Holmes rebrightened but I like to think of it as 'someday this will be Holmes' . Check it out:

http://www.digitalblasphemy.com/fsh...y=2006&n=Reverie&b=count&z=228949532942650255

plantman said:

Headsup! Comet Holmes discussed tonight on Coast to coast AM!

Click to expand...

Thanks for the reminder. I was listening to the special Jim Mccanney broadcast that he had on at 1:00 AM EST and switched over to C2C at 2:00 AM EST (missing Mccanney's final hour). My personal opinion is if you can get past all the me-me-me and paranoia that everyone is out to discredit him - Mccanney was a more interesting show. His theory fits what's happening with Holmes. Doesn't mean he's correct, but he can get the facts of Homes to fit the comet model he's been espousing for years. Unlike conventional comet scientists, he's not stumped at all. Unfortunately, you have to do a lot of filtering to get to the theory. I think he said the show tonight would be archived on his site, worth checking out if you're interested.

HD

Tonight's update is not really an update at all, but in order to archive spaceweather's coverage of Holmes I'm including it.

http://www.spaceweather.com/
(fair use applies)

MOON AND COMET: For the past several nights, observers of exploding Comet 17P/Holmes have been frustrated by the overwhelming glare of the Moon. Gunnar Glitscher of Darmstadt, Germany, has found a solution: eclipse glasses.

(see photo below)

"Using solar eclipse glasses held towards the brilliant full moon, I was able to capture this 15 second exposure (ISO 800) showing the relative sizes of Comet Holmes and our natural satellite."

"I was surprised to see the 3-million-km wide dust sphere quite easily with my naked eyes," he adds. And what do you do if you don't have eclipse glasses? Glitscher offers a handy alternative.

Click to expand...

spaceweather photo direct link:
http://www.spaceweather.com/comets/holmes/27nov07/Gunnar-Glitscher1.jpg
(fair use applies)

Two pictures taken on Nov. 26, 2007. I'm still not sure of the orientation so I'm not flipping them. - HD

First picture:
http://napac.free.fr/cometes/17P/comete_17p_26112007.html
(fair use applies)

Second picture:
http://www.danilopivato.com/solar_system/comets/17p_holmes/2007.11.26_lrgb.htm
(fair use applies)

Mccanney Question

I know that some posters following this thread have also been following James Mccanney,

does any of those posters know what he is talking about with this line from his webbsite?


"SO NOW GETTING BACK TO THE MANY OTHER ISSUES ... INCLUDING THE POSSIBLE UPCOMING EPOCH OF SEVERE WEATHER NEAR THE DATE OF DECEMBER 22 AS I DISCUSSED BEFORE ... "

if you do post it here or pm me,

thanks,

ds

dragonslayer2001 said:

I know that some posters following this thread have also been following James Mccanney,

does any of those posters know what he is talking about with this line from his webbsite?

"SO NOW GETTING BACK TO THE MANY OTHER ISSUES ... INCLUDING THE POSSIBLE UPCOMING EPOCH OF SEVERE WEATHER NEAR THE DATE OF DECEMBER 22 AS I DISCUSSED BEFORE ... "

if you do post it here or pm me

Click to expand...

I just now sat through the 3 hour C2C show to relisten to summarize it for the thread, and it's too late to do the summary of Mccanney's show tonight. I hope to do have that summary tomorrow night and if he mentions the Dec 22nd date (I seem to remember he did in passing without explanation in the first hour, but I didn't hear the 2nd hour yet) I will add that to the summary. I will say that after listening to the C2C show, I find myself more in alignment with McCanney's theories, although both topics were on the electric universe, there were differences. That is why I wanted to post the summaries - so everyone can make up their own minds. I've been listening to McCanney for years though so I'm more familiar with his work and hearing it applied to Comet Holmes seemed to make a lot of sense.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Notes taken while listening to discussion of Comet Holmes from C2C last night - all discussion of Comet Holmes happened in the 2nd hour - which was the first hour the guests were on. I listened to the end just to be sure. (not a bad listen though so no complaints):

The conventional theory of material outgassed from nucleus - it wouldn't form a sphere or be that bright

It seems that Comet Holmes must have struck a change in the solar wind environment, the electrical environment of the sun. Either a stronger charge, more dense wind, or speed of the wind changed suddenly. Sudden changes give rise to outburst of a comet

Q: did it hit dark matter? or a rock out there? A: rock - implausible. dark matter - so obscure, it's reaching to excess.

Comet Holmes was moving far far and away from the sun. Brightened twice - 1892 - it was out close to Jupiter's orbit. (even further out) Model of comet that sees them evaporating in warmth of the sun doesn't work for Holmes. Also doesn't work for other comets that disintegrate miles from the sun, or comets as far out as Saturn that brighten.

Comets are rocky bodies similar to asteroids. Moving through electric field of sun in a way that asteroids do not.

Electric field of the sun is strong enough at those distances to create a cometary display.

There is an electric field sufficient to light the sun which throws into doubt standard fusion model of sun. Series of dominos that reach out to stellar formation and evolution. Electric field is creating the sun - the sun is connected to galactic currents, or streams of charged particles. We are meeting up with electric fields in space, and consequent magnetic fields prevade the universe.

This electric field is concentrated in certain spots and over large distances it may be very weak. Between planets in our solar system its weak. Close to the sun you see the energy involved in the sun.

Comet Holmes is larger than sun - sphere/coma is larger than sun - typical of electrical body in the universe, which coats itself with a glowing sheath. In fact the actual sun resides deep within the sun as we see it, we are actually looking at a huge electrical discharge.

Electric field of the sun at any point across a few meters is so weak as to be immeasurable. But there is an incredible volume across a billion miles of space and more. And when a comet is rushing in towards the sun at 1000s of miles per hour it can't adjust to the charge differential. Comet experiences an increasing stress, then that stress reaches a certain point and it discharges electrically.

Right in the nucleus of a comet (as seen with Comet Tempel), you see bright spots that can't be explained. They are an electric arc eating away the surface and creating the jets. Material being drawn from nucleus into space.

Before a comet could strike the earth, the electrical discharge between the two will destroy the comet. Sand and rock will fall to earth as the comet disintergrates. But the electrical discharge itself could effect the earth. Like it did in Tugusnka (s?). Also they say that's what cause the Chicago Fires (disappearance of Beiler's (sp?) comet happened at the same time and rocks were reported falling from the sky). That's what they call a celestial thunderbolt - or thunderbolt of the gods (title of the their book). They are thunderbolts associated with rocks falling from the sky

(end notes)

HD

Thanks

HD.

Looking forward to anything else you come up with. I started a thread in Unex on webbots, and I think they also mentioned Dec 22. Which is odd and is why I am interested.

Yes, I remember the large number of Comets that came through our system around 2004 and all the debris our planet was pelted with, AND

the massive explosions on the sun at the same time,

which really made me pay attention to Mccanney at the time. He's a nutter on some things for sure but that does not mean he isn't right or partially right on this electric universe theory of his.

I didn't find any updates tonight, not for lack of trying though. It seems that no one has reported on its size since the full moon. I'm looking forward to that update, and to see if the rate of growth has continued at the same rate or increased.

Here are tonight's pictures:

First picture from Italy, taken on Nov. 27th:
http://digilander.libero.it/infosis/homepage/astronomia/17p.htm
(fair use applies)


Second picture from Nov. 27th as well
http://www.rkracht.de/forum/20071127.jpg
(fair use applies)

Third picture also from Nov. 27th
http://www.parhelia.de/storm/2007/holmes_20071127b.jpg
(fair use applies)

dragonslayer2001 said:

HD.

Looking forward to anything else you come up with. I started a thread in Unex on webbots, and I think they also mentioned Dec 22. Which is odd and is why I am interested.

Click to expand...

I plan on checking that out. Didn't they mention a date in November as well? Did that date pass yet?

Yes, I remember the large number of Comets that came through our system around 2004 and all the debris our planet was pelted with, AND

the massive explosions on the sun at the same time,

which really made me pay attention to Mccanney at the time. He's a nutter on some things for sure but that does not mean he isn't right or partially right on this electric universe theory of his.

Click to expand...

I definitely have to do a lot of filtering when I listen to him. He seems to have gotten a lot more paranoid since I first started listening, and has also gone off the subject of comets to gov't conspiracies, NWO type stuff, and other non-science related areas which he didn't use to do. I tune all of that out, but when it comes to his comet theory - it makes a lot of sense and is worth having to sift through the other stuff to get to. Last night he spent the first 20 or so minutes complaining about how he's persecuted, etc. But when he finally got to the comet stuff - wow. He seemed to me to be spot on. Too bad he can't just stay on topic.

BTW, the shows are archived on his web page, that's where I intend to listen to them from. If you're interested in the entire show, you can listen here:

http://www.jmccanneyscience.com/CometHolmesSub-Page.HTM

HD

Summary of Jim Mccanney's show. So much better than the C2C show imho, so much more thorough. He really knows his science - when it comes to comets, he's very credible. I didn't summarize the politics/conspiracy aspects - just the comet science. If you want to hear the entire show - the link is right above this post.

I basically took notes as he spoke, so it may not read as smoothly as a regular summary/article would.

FIRST HOUR:

INTRO: Comet brightened in October 2007, observed by amateur astronomers. No one expected it to do this. Originally discovered by Edwin Holmes in 1892, who was looking at Andromeda at the time. He reported it and over the next number of nights - astronomers around the world were notified, but none of them could calculate the orbit of Comet Holmes. When a comet explodes into brightness like this, it's dragging in tail material and this changes comet's orbit. This is what we're seeing now with the modern brightening of the comet. Astronomers were making very bad assumptions - they say that the nucleus is 2 miles across - he believes this is a very much larger object. Comet Holmes effected our weather - somewhat indirectly. His weather work involves electromagnetic conditions in the solar system - shows how a series of alignments of the planets mercury, Venus Mars and CH - ignited comet into brightness. A kind of zapping, electrical discharge in the solar system. name of his comet theory: the plasma discharge comet model.

SCIENCE ISSUES: He took the modern orbit and moved it backwards in time, took the position of solar system on Nov. 6, 1892 - the night when Holmes discovered it. Edwin Holmes gave a specific location in the sky for Holmes. Saw it near Andromeda. If you calculate the comet back in its current orbit - the comet is in a very different position than where Edwin Holmes saw it. So this tells us the comet's orbit has changed substantially over the last 100 years. It did have a small encounter with Jupiter at one point in time, but many other things have happened. this is key to Comet Holmes. When Edwin Holmes discovered it in 1892 - he saw it 1 hour west of midnight. Very specific location. If you retro-calculate the current orbit, it would turn out on the far side of the solar system. Tail drag changed the orbit, it is the material being dragged into the comet nucleus. It's not a melting away snowball. They didn't know it was drawing in more material, and becoming a planet which changed its orbit. This is very apparent from the positions Edwin Holmes was looking when he discovered comet in 1892.

A few times in history it has brightened a little, but not as much as now. What was the same incident that happened then and now?. in 1892 - Earth and Jupiter had a perfect electrical alignment.

Planets all are discharging the solar capacitor, just like comets do. This is the electrical nature of solar system and planets. The sun is surrounded by a large capacitor - everyday example he uses is the backyard bug zapper. Two electrical screens surround a neon light - bug flies between two grids, electrical discharge snaps across the two grids, right where the bug is - just like happens in solar system. When an object exists in the capacitor of the solar system, it is discharging the capacitor around the sun and the electrical current is passing between the sun along the path where the object lies, (planet or a piece of dust - all objects discharge this capacitor) radially outward from the sun. Earth has a long electrical tail that it spins out in space opposite of the sun on the night side of the planet. Mars, Venus, Mercury all have similar electrical tails - hundreds of millions miles long. Larger than the planet itself. Their electrical size is enormous, elongated linear direction away from the sun.

Every now and then, the inner planets tails will align with earth - or earth's tails will align with outer planets, and when those alignment occur, the electrical discharges across the solar system increases, and these are additive electrical discharges. And the events in the solar system related to electricity depend on these electrical tails as they align. Then the electrical events occur in the solar system. That is one of the things that can trigger severe weather on earth. These electrical alignments. He predicts severe weather events based on that. And on December 2007, more electrical alignments are coming into the solar system.

Venus, Mercury, Earth, Mars and the comet aligned in November - that's why we had severe weather in Nov.

He looked for this activity in 1892. Why did it erupt in 1892 on Nov. 6th? In late October of 1892, an extremely rare 4 planet alignment - mercury, Venus earth and Mars. That got the overall electrical discharge enhanced for these 4 planets. On Nov. 6th - at that time, CH was passing between earth and Jupiter, earth already had its enhanced discharge, and then it connected with Jupiter, and Comet Holmes wandered right between them. Edwin Holmes was looking at Andromeda galaxy, went over to Jupiter, looked at Jupiter and swung back and discovered Comet Holmes. He saw a very excited, enlarged, bright comet. He thought he was looking at Andromeda galaxy - but it was round. It was the solar system electrical conditions that kicked off 1892 brightening of Comet Holmes.

Comet Holmes faded in brightness and about a month later - it kicked up again. What was the electrical triggering mechanism that would have excited it again? Earth had moved out of the equation. But Mars came up behind Holmes, and in Dec. Mars and Jupiter had an electrical alignment - and CH was right in the middle.

What happens to Comet Holmes everytime this happens? All of that matter surrounding the nucleus, is being drawn into the nucleus.

Within a day, Edwin Holmes notified astronomers around the world. On successive nights, different astronomers tried to predict the orbit, but they all came up with totally different orbital characteristics for the comet, this proceeded on for the next number of days into the next week, until finally someone identified the final orbital parameters of Comet Holmes. (how it's done: they see background stars with comet, 3 successive nights, comet in different position, take that data and use an equation, and determine orbit of object.) But, when astronomers plugged in the data point they took - each one came up with a different orbit. That's because the orbit was changing dramatically during this time because of the tail drag - dragging in a lot of material that was previously sitting still. Accumulating matter, slows nucleus down, changes orbit.

Earth experienced severe weather at that time. He's still putting that data together from British navy archives, still researching data, but clear that associated with brightening of Comet Holmes in 1892, had severe weather incidents. Also in 2007. Comet Holmes is one piece of equation causing earth's weather. Hurricane noel, 2 typhoons in Pacific, severe winds coming into Scandinavia all happened with Holmes in 2007.

Comet Holmes continued to accumulate matter, at a reduced rate. Orbit remained stable. In the middle of 1892-2007 - there was an encounter with Jupiter. Comet Holmes is a member of Jupiter family of comets. Jupiter captures comets into the solar system. (important with issue of planet x too). Jupiter in conjunction with gravitational field of sun, are able to create an interaction with an object and it slows the object down. So object comes into an orbit. All the outer planets have comets, captured by those planets, and they stay in the vicinity. Saturn has comets, etc.

Future of Comet Holmes - since in an orbit between Mars and Jupiter. Is it earth threatening? NO, it's way out there, not coming close to earth. He looked into the future, a dozen years or so, and there does not seem to be any chance it will be diverted into inner solar system near us. Tail drag will cause it's orbit to spiral inwards in time. Eventually it can become a moon of Mars. A little brother of Mars.

Size of nucleus. When it was first announced that taken a brightness measurement saying it was 2.2 miles across. He says didn't measure it correctly. Hubbell telescope would only go down to 33 miles distance - couldn't measure anything smaller than 33 miles across. So they had to use a brightness measurement. Assumed it was a white snowball. But nucleus is not snowy, and not white, but black. So a black object with that amount of brightness would have to be larger - 30 miles or more likely 60 to 100 miles across. That's his estimate at this point. Comet Holmes nucleus is probably quite large - at least 30 miles across and potentially as much as 100 miles across. So he thinks it's a new minor planet - because that's big enough to be a new planetary object. Called a minor planet if the size is anywhere from 50 to 500 miles across. So we have a new planetary member of our solar system forming right before our eyes. Confirms his theoretical
work for decades.

Astronomers do not want public to imagine that comets can become planets. Could potentially, over a long period of time, 100,000's of years possibly, it can become a full blown major planet. But at this point, its small, it probably will remain small. But the next stop logically in the human mind is if we can have a small object like this become a minor planet - all we need is a large object coming into the solar system to become a big planet. And when these objects like this come in, we can't predict their orbit. Like we saw in 1892, the astronomers tried night after night to determine the orbit but could not. That's the same that happened with Hale-Bopp. When it came through astronomers had to change their data every single night as that large comet changed its orbit. There again, Hale Bopp is a new planetary member, just hasn't come in to become a permanent member of our inner solar system or major planets. Hale Bopp won't be back for 2600 years.

Planet X. There are many planet x objects. Called Nibiru, wormwood. A lot of confusion involved in this object and event. When these big objects - the size of Jupiter or larger, come into our solar system - they come in dragging in an entire family of secondary objects, like a mini-solar system. Some of the companions are pulled off. This is what happened many thousands of years ago. A mini-solar system moves into our solar system, with entourage of objects, pulled off by Jupiter and Saturn. One object came by Jupiter, brightens up extensively, was captured by Jupiter (just like Comet Holmes was captured) - but this was a big one. Probably 2,000 miles across or 3,000 miles across. This became the giant comet that moved through the solar system, pulled off the oceans and atmosphere in Mars - encountered Earth twice. Caused great flood and catastrophe - drove everyone back to cave ages, killed most of world population. Tail drag pushed the comet in and it eventually came Planet Venus. They objects were not Planet X - they were an associated object. There were many comets in the sky at the time. There are many of these objects, not just one.

Some comets become planets (most are too small, and will never become a planet, or moon, or major solar system object). But occasionally, and very rarely, large ones come in, and they can when creating the cometary structure, when they're building and growing, can reek havoc with the current planets. Not just earth, could be many of the other planets. When you look at moon and planets, they're all different. Formed in different locations in Solar System. Very complex theory.

Literally any object that comes into the solar system would become a comet. It would discharge the solar capacitor and draw in the tail material and slowly become a permanent member of our solar system

Comet Holmes - what does it mean? It means we have a new planetary member forming in our solar system. Confirms in history that a large comet came into solar system and ravaged the planets especially Mars and earth (Venus)- makes his theory all very plausible.

SECOND HOUR:

Comet Holmes has effected and will effect our weather when we move into December. On Dec 22 - Earth, Mars and Comet Homes will have a fairly significant electrical alignment. And it has already effected weather here during Oct 23 outburst - Mercury, Venus, Mars and the comet were electrically aligned and there was a significant electrical current passing through the solar system and it effected our weather. Typhoon in the pacific out of season, Nov 6th hurricane Noel, hurricane force winds in MA, into North Sea, north of Ireland and Britain, had to evacuate workers off north sea oil derricks. All because of comet Holmes. The comet didn't directly cause this, it was in conjunction with new moon (and btw the new moon is electrical trigger for earth weather), and alignment with the other 3 planets, Mercury, Venus, Mars and comet.

Same conditions that were present in 1892 - that time on Nov 6th, Earth, Jupiter, and Comet Holmes caused the brightening where originally discovered in 1892.

This is a major event - a planet forming in our solar system, scientific communities don't want you to think about it. Because it leads to the wrong questions. What if it gets bigger? What if it becomes a planetary moon with Mars someday? There is so much energy in solar wind passing by earth, we don't need oil, coal or nuclear power. We could run our entire society off of electricity that is moving by our solar system everyday.

Dust cloud could be reflecting solar light - OR - there is so much electricity flowing through comet, it lights up like a light bulb. That's a controversial concept.

Comets are very illuminated in ultra violet light and in the visible spectrum and Comet Holmes was lit up very brightly because of the electrical current passing through it, associated with electrical discharge of other planets. Electrical energy passing thru solar system. Comes to earth in the form of severe weather, winds, etc. Severe weather on thru early part of Dec. and wouldn't be surprised to see a Christmas or late Dec hurricane. High possibility of having severe weather when earth, Mars and comet have electrical alignment. Severe winds, snowstorms, Dec. 22nd - around that date, a few days earlier or later.

NASA astronomers have access to Spitzer telescope, that would give very different spectral readings, incl. xrays. but none published. Radio telescopes to discover exact size of nucleus. Taken the data but hasn't been published. Not releasing real data. this is what he determines.

Any of the large objects that come into the solar system will also take on the shape of a comet. They will discharge the solar capacitor, they will form a tail or a large coma around them (as in the case of Comet Holmes), and they will look like a comet.

Planet X will not look like an orange ball - it will look like a large comet (not like Hale-Bopp, not like Comet Holmes). It will stretch across the entire sky, visible in daytime, obviously electrically active, zapping electrical discharges to the other planets. These big comets are a fact of nature. Like hurricane, tornado, cyclone - part of how the solar system works. Big object becoming a giant comet, passing through or becoming a planet (like Venus).

Comet Holmes is action at a distance. Comets and extra solar system objects that come in can cause damage without hitting earth directly. A comet went by Mars and lifted off its atmosphere and oceans. (Venus)

We have some updates tonight!

First from http://www.spaceweather.com/
(fair use applies)

COMET 17P/HOLMES: The bright Moon is leaving the evening sky and Comet Holmes is emerging from the glare. "It was nice to see the comet again," says Peter von Bagh who spotted it last night from his home in Porvoo, Finland:

"You can easily find it with binoculars even in a light-polluted urban sky," he says.

Comet Holmes is not as bright as it was when it exploded in late October. Most people now have trouble finding it with the naked eye. A quick sweep through Perseus with a pair of binoculars, however, will pinpoint the comet while the smallest of telescopes reveals it to be a truly impressive object. Consider this photo taken through a 2-inch refractor by Paolo Berardi of L'Aquila, Italy, on Nov. 27th. Comet Holmes may have dimmed, but it is still worth watching!

Click to expand...

From: http://www.skyandtelescope.com/observing/home/11886291.html
(fair use applies)

A Revival of Comet Holmes

Did I say a few days ago that Comet Holmes had become invisible to the naked eye? That was then; now it’s back.

The difference isn’t in the comet. It’s that the Moon has just left the early-evening sky, allowing a dark view for the first time in nearly two weeks.

Around 7 last night (November 27th), I stepped out my front door in Boston’s moderately light-polluted outer suburbs, looked up, and there it was again — a sizeable puffglow just above Alpha Persei (Mirfak). Not only is the moonlight gone, but now the comet is separated enough from Alpha Per that the star’s 2nd-magnitude glare doesn’t get in the way.

Binoculars actually gave a prettier view than my 12.5-inch reflector — framing the big, parabola-shaped comet head (a good 0.7° wide, I estimated) next to the gorgeous starry field of the Alpha Persei Association. Inside the head was the familiar largish glow behind the (invisible) nucleus and the broad “spine” that’s now extending behind the glow. The 12.5-inch at 75× showed these features hardly any better, so big are they now, and the whole thing overfilled the telescope’s view.

I’ve long thought that moonlight and light pollution differ in how badly the same amount of them hinder astronomical views, with light pollution being the worst. But I may have to revise that notion considering the experience of my S&T colleague Tony Flanders observing the comet last evening from a badly light-polluted inner suburb of Boston. Here’s what he says:

“I got my best naked-eye view of Comet Holmes to date. When the comet first exploded in October, it was extremely bright but nearly stellar. Later on, it got tangled with Alpha Persei and the surrounding group of bright stars. And when the full Moon was nearby, I couldn’t see the comet at all without binoculars.

“But now it’s much easier to spot naked-eye than any deep-sky objects except the Pleiades. It’s big enough so that nobody could mistake it for a star, and it appears significantly brighter than the Andromeda Galaxy or the Double Cluster.

“My most detailed view was through my 70-mm refractor at 20×. The outer coma was pretty vague in the suburban skyglow, but I could trace it to a diameter of roughly 45′. Inside that was a brighter ellipse about 10′ by 25′. The southeast end of the ellipse was quite intense, and it faded out gradually to the northwest.”orthern Hemisphere observers can find Comet Holmes in Perseus during evening for mont

So, is moonlight gentler or tougher on deep-sky observing than the same amount of light pollution? What do you think? Add to the comments below.

P. S.: I can think of two possible reasons for a difference between their effects:

Color. A light-polluted sky has the peach-orange tint of high-pressure-sodium lamps (though it’s been turning whiter in the last decade with the spread of metal-halide lamps). A moonlit sky, on the other hand, is blue — exactly as blue as a daytime sunlit sky, as long-exposure photos show (try it). We don’t see this because our color vision doesn’t work well in dim light, but it might affect the visibility of faint things even so.

Altitude. Moonlight comes from the top down, illuminating the upper atmosphere as much as the lower atmosphere. Light pollution comes from the bottom up. Much of it spreads out from limited areas (cities), and the worst of it consists of near-horizontal rays; these characteristics mean that it illuminates the lower atmosphere more than the upper.

Click to expand...

Pictures from articles:

First picture (left) from spaceweather can be found at:
http://www.spaceweather.com/comets/holmes/28nov07/Peter-von-Bagh1.jpg
(fair use applies)

Next picture (right) is from sky and telescope article. This is the caption that accompanied it:
http://media.skyandtelescope.com/images/By-Horne-11-27_640.jpg (fair use applies)

Observers anxiously awaited moonless skies to again see Comet Holmes in all its splendor. North Carolina photographer Johnny Horne captured this view before moonrise on November 27th. The field is 3° wide, with north to the left and bright Mirfak (Alpha Persei) at bottom left. Click image for larger view.

This may also be the first published astronomical shot taken with Nikon's new D300 DSLR camera. It's a single 5-minute exposure made using in-camera noise reduction and a 300-mm f/2.8 lens set at f/4. The camera offers "live focus" and a CMOS detector, both of which have proven track records for astronomical photography. (The image has been processed slightly in Photoshop to darken the sky a bit.) Johnny Horne

Click to expand...

This is the caption to the sky chart: (bottom)
http://media.skyandtelescope.com/images/Holmes_findr_640px.jpg (fair use applies)

Finder chart as comet fades duiring evening for months to come. Click on image for a larger view. Sky & Telescope

Click to expand...

Tonight's pictures:

http://spaceweather.com/submissions...lake-C_HolmesMoon112607(sm)_1196144759_fl.jpg
(fair use applies)

Jimmy Westlake
Comet Holmes
Submitted: Nov 27, 2007 -- 6:26 UT
Image taken: Nov. 26, 2007
Location: Stagecoach, Colorado, USA
Details: Before moonrise tonight, I snapped this image of Comet Holmes, a 122-sec guided exposure with a 300 mm Nikkor lens at f2.8. This was the first opportunity I have had to shoot the comet since the bright moon began interfering nearly two weeks ago. Still visible to the unaided eye in a clear, dark sky, the comet has swollen into a fuzzball considerably larger in angular size then the Moon. To emphasize this, I have inset an image of the waning gibbous moon taken tonight after moonrise with the same 300 mm lens. The bright star to the lower left of the comet is Mirfak (Alpha Persei) and the star cluster to the right of the comet is NGC 1245. Both images were taken with a Fuji Finepix S2 digital camera.

Click to expand...

Now that the moon isn't in the way, there are more pictures to select from. Some are real beauites.

You'll notice, the comet has become more egg like in shape (less round) and that the front side no longer has a clear boundary.

(fair use applies)

From Ludanyhalaszi, Hungary on Nov. 27, 2007
http://www.spaceweather.com/comets/holmes/28nov07/Erno-Berko1.jpg

From Romania Nov 27th
http://www.spaceweather.com/comets/holmes/28nov07/Stanescu-Octavian-com27no1_1196248515.jpg

From the 27th:
http://www.kometen.info/17p/fm271107.jpg

A picture that shows more detail of the coma area:
http://fototime.com/E4F5B5C27F3C297/orig.jpg

A quick PS-

Following Jim Mccanney's science hypothesis, I wonder if we will see a re-brightening of Comet Holmes on or about Dec. 22nd. He didn't offer that possibility - he was more concerned with weather phenomenon - I'm just extrapolating that if it brightened due to the alignment of planets before - the alignment in December may cause it to brighten again.

It would also be interesting to see where the other 2 comets (Tuttle and the one just discovered) align in the next month and if they fit into this configuration as well. That could be quite the show



I posted this on DS's webbot thread in unex, but I'll repost it here because it may point to the date of a second rebrightening if this theory is correct.
~~~~~~~~~~
Quick answer as to why Mccanney mentioned Dec. 22nd: Earth and Mars will be aligned with Comet Holmes on that date. Since he believes planetary alignments discharge the solar capacitor, etc. - he expects windy type stormy weather, possibly even a late hurricane, around that date -give or take a few days on either side.

Not mentioned by Mccanney is a planetary alignment on Dec 23 and 24. This blurb does not include Holmes, but now we know Holmes is included in this configuration as well.

excerpted from:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conjunction_(astronomy_and_astrology)#2007
(fair use applies)

A very remarkable planetary/galactic configuration occurs on December 23rd and 24th 2007. The configuration on December 23 — Mars, Earth, Sun, Mercury, Jupiter, Galactic Centre — is shown in the graphic simulation linked below; it becomes even more remarkable in that it will be accompanied by the Full Moon (conjunct Mars) at about 2 a.m. on December 24 when a simultaneous Venus square Neptune occurs. It is even more remarkable in that the Pluto/Sun conjunction appears exactly on the Winter Solstice, just past conjunction with the Galactic Centre.

Link below is the view from Mars toward the Jupiter, Mars, Earth, Mercury, Pluto alignment toward the Galactic Centre on 23 December 2007 which occurs just after the Pluto/Jupiter (Heliocentric) conjunction on 23 November 2007. NASA Solar System Simulator for 23rd Dec 2007 (See first image below)

Solar System on Dec 22, 2007. What is not shown is Pluto (which would be to Jupiter's right) Saturn, which follows down from Venus, and Uranus and Neptune. Saturn and Neptune form the cross's t-member. It is a 23/12 configuration. There will be a full moon on Dec. 23, 2007

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First image as linked to in above excerpt is from http://space.jpl.nasa.gov/cgi-bin/w...0&minute=00&fovmul=1&rfov=10&bfov=100&porbs=1
(fair use applies)

Second image from jpl orbit monitor for Comet Holmes on December 22nd - showing the alignment of Earth and Mars - you can also see the alignment of Mercury, the Sun and Jupiter with them.

Heliobas

thank you for that very long summary of Mccanneys show.

I'll be keeping and eye on weather in Dec, especially around the 22nd.


ds

It just seems that this article
http://www.timebomb2000.com/vb/showthread.php?t=267252

2 more comets are on the way,

which was posted from Alchemike should link with the Holmes article

thanks Mike

dragonslayer2001 said:

thank you for that very long summary of Mccanneys show. I'll be keeping and eye on weather in Dec, especially around the 22nd.

Click to expand...

NC Susan said:

It just seems that this article 2 more comets are on the way, which was posted from Alchemike should link with the Holmes article

Click to expand...

Thanks NCSusan for linking the two threads.

DS- no problem, I enjoyed listening to it again and taking notes helped it all sink in.

I did a composite image of the three comets on December 23rd. It's not that good - hopefully some comet enthusiast who is good with imaging will do one that moves (like they did a few years back when we had other comets at the same time).

What I find really interesting is that Venus is not part of this grand conjunction, but Venus and Boattini are electrically aligned as well on the 23rd. This should really test Mccanney's theories.

First I'll post the individual orbit gifs and then the composite. I lightened the composite so you could see the names of all three comets more clearly. The reason it's blurry is I overlayed the three images over each other in photoshop.

HD