[REL] The U.S. wasn't founded by Christians but by Deists.

http://www.yellowtimes.org/article.php?sid=139&mode=thread&order=0

''Ashcroft, American history, and speaking in tongues''
Date: Sunday, February 24 @ 13:51:45 EST
Topic: John Chuckman


By John Chuckman
YellowTimes.org Columnist (Canada)
(YellowTimes.org) – John Ashcroft, Attorney General of the United States, recently repeated an old chestnut about America being a Christian nation whose founders were Christian gentlemen.

The claim is common among the country's fundamentalist Christians, but it is so ignorant of actual history one wonders whether it should not be taken as another serious indictment of American public education. Some readers may not be aware that Mr. Ashcroft's background includes familiarity with such arcane subjects as speaking in tongues. As for Mr. Bush, who touched the same theme in China, perhaps no comment on his grasp of history is required.

The late eighteenth century, following on the Enlightenment and waves of reaction to the violent excesses of the Reformation and counter-Reformation over the previous two centuries, was perhaps the lowest point for Christian influence ever. Virtually all educated people in Europe were deists and many were open skeptics.

America was not free of this influence despite its many Puritan immigrants. Indeed, many of the best educated citizens at this time were educated in Europe, and the small number of good libraries owned by educated people often contained the works of Enlightenment authors. Virtually all the ideas in the Declaration of Independence and even some of the words of the Constitution derive from these European sources. It is due precisely to the unique qualities of the period that we owe America's early embrace of religious tolerance. The immigrant Puritans had displayed no religious tolerance, and in fact were some of the worst fanatics from Europe.

George Washington was a deist. He was a member of the Masons, a then comparatively-new, secretive fraternal organization widely regarded as unfriendly to traditional Christianity and reflecting European secular attitudes. He did attend church regularly, but this was done with the aristocratic notion that it set an example for the lower classes, Washington being very much a planter-aristocrat (he used to refer to the independent-minded Yankee recruits in the revolution, who had had the practice of electing their officers before he was appointed as commander, as "a dirty and nasty people."). This was a time when there was an established church in Virginia, and it functioned as an important quasi-political organization.

Washington always used deistic terms like Great Providence. His writings, other than one brief note as a very young man, do not speak of Jesus, and he died, knowing he was dying, without ever calling for prayer, Bible, or minister. There is a story given by some of his best biographers shedding light on his church-going. He apparently never kneeled for prayer nor would he take communion. When one parson brought this to his attention after the service, Washington gave him the icy stare for which this aloof, emotionally-cold man was famous and never returned to that church.

Thomas Jefferson was accused publicly of being an atheist. More than any other founder, Jefferson was under the spell of European (and particularly French) thought. His writings, and references to him by friends, certainly make him sound like a private skeptic. He belonged to no church. He explicitly denied the divinity of Jesus, viewing him as a great teacher of human values. At best he was a deist referring in his private writings to God as "our god."

Jefferson who, despite high-sounding words, was something of a hypocrite on many aspects of civil liberties and particularly on slavery, was at his best on the need for religious liberty. Despite his free-thinking reputation, he formed alliances with groups like the Baptists, who deeply resented paying taxes to the established church in Virginia and won a long battle for a statute of religious liberty.

Thomas Paine, whose stirring words in Common Sense contributed greatly to the revolution, was often accused of atheism because of his religious writing, but deism is closer to the truth. His later writing done in Europe, “The Age of Reason,” was regarded as scandalous by establishment-types. France, during the terror under Robespierre, turned to a new kind of state religion. This, the very brave Paine, living in Paris, also rejected, writing,

"I do not believe in the creed professed…by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the protestant church, nor any church that I know of. My own mind is my own church."

The great Dr. Franklin, who incidentally lived about a quarter of his life on diplomatic missions in Europe and who as a very young man had run away from a home where rigid religious principles were imposed, was a typical deist of the period. He was an active member of the first Masonic temple in America. His attitudes were so amicable to French intellectuals and society, he was embraced, as no other American has ever been, as a national figure in that country.

Alexander Hamilton, undoubtedly the most intellectually gifted of the founders other than Franklin, paid lip service to religion, but he was known during the Revolution as a rake. Later, his distinguished career in Washington's cabinet was marred by a great sexual scandal. Generally, Hamilton used religion to promote his political aims, ignoring it whenever it was convenient. In this respect, perhaps he qualifies as a thoroughly modern American version of a Christian.

Gouveneur Morris, who wrote the draft of the Constitution we all recognize from the notes of others, was an extremely worldly and aristocratic man. He was also one of Washington's most trusted confidants. He was perhaps the most rakish, womanizing diplomat America ever sent to Europe, sharing at one point a mistress with Talleyrand, the most amoral ex-cleric who ever practiced statecraft. In general, Europeans were astonished that a man so worldly and so arrogantly patrician in temperament represented the young republic for a period in France.

Abraham Lincoln, while not a founder, is the most beloved of American presidents. Lincoln's closest friend and most interesting biographer, Herndon, said flatly that Lincoln was a religious skeptic. This has always so upset America's establishment historians that Herndon has been accused of writing a distorted book, a rather ridiculous charge in view of a close friendship with his subject and twenty years spent collecting materials.

Lincoln never attended church and when he refers to God in speeches during the Civil War, it is always with words acceptable to secular, educated people who regarded the King James Bible as an important cultural and literary document apart from any claims for its sacredness.

There is reason to believe that as the bloody war continued, Lincoln, who suffered from severe depressions, turned to the Bible for consolation, especially to the story of the struggle of the Hebrews.

Lincoln was also an extremely astute politician who used every means at his command in the great battle with secession, and his references to the Almighty may well have been part of his psychological artillery. He certainly did not invoke the name of Jesus.

Patrick Henry, who incidentally opposed ratification of the Constitution, was a Christian, but he was once described by Jefferson as "an emotional volcano with little guiding intelligence."

Just a little brush up on history…

John Chuckman encourages your comments: jchuckman@YellowTimes.org

YellowTimes.org encourages its material to be reproduced , reprinted, or broadcast provided that any such reproduction must identify the original source, http://www.YellowTimes.org. Internet web links to http://www.YellowTimes.org are appreciated.

Man, have U opened a can of snakes or what? You are likely to get sooooo much guff from the christians.......too bad they would be railing against the truth.

Naw, pliney...

.....It's just a crock that has been perpetuated by the antiChrist "jewish" communist element for many years now; it is obvious that any who would believe such trot is in abject ignorance and likes it there... all one need do is read the writings of George Washington, Patrick Henry, James Madison or Benjamin Franklin to know better; but they'd rather remain intellectually lazy and believe an atrocious lie designed implicitly for the destruction of their country and very heritage and expose themselves as worse than merely ignorant... Methinks one needs to be actually stupid to believe it...

Ah yes, enlightenment from the decidedly Marxist yellowtimes.org.

You numbskulls really gonn try and beat this dead horse again?

Patrick summed it up nicely, but for a bit of a true education instead of the bullshit revisionist pap - read the actual diaries and letters of Hamilton, Jefferson and Franklin. The impassioned entries in the journals of those like Patrick Henry and Washington. Upon digesting their entirety it would be intellectully dishonest to even suggest the crap these yellowbellies have.

Their own words confirm they were God-fearing, devout and Christian men of a type no one in the so-called Christian world today would recognize.

the real issue is their stand on abortion . . .

For any interested in knowing what Thomas Paine thought about religion, take a browse through this....

http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/thomas_paine/age_of_reason/part1.html#4

Paine was a Deist...

"EVERY national church or religion has established itself by pretending some special mission from God, communicated to certain individuals. The Jews have their Moses; the Christians their Jesus Christ, their apostles and saints; and the Turks their Mahomet; as if the way to God was not open to every man alike.

Each of those churches shows certain books, which they call revelation, or the Word of God. The Jews say that their Word of God was given by God to Moses face to face; the Christians say, that their Word of God came by divine inspiration; and the Turks say, that their Word of God (the Koran) was brought by an angel from heaven. Each of those churches accuses the other of unbelief; and, for my own part, I disbelieve them all."

warren.

(rel) The U.S. wasn't founded by Christians

Of all the men you mentioned, it is my sincere belief that each one of them were led and inspired by the Holy Spirit. While the Masons may be, and I repeat may be, demonic in this present age, perhaps in the early times of our country's establishment, it was noble and righteous. Christianity in the truest sense is not going to a church, or professing some religion. It is a belief in a higher power, a Supreme Being, the CREATED the world and mankind, and that mankind did not come here by a process of evolution, but by a CREATOR. All of our early leaders were seeking freedom from the religious dogma that pervaded Europe. You can take a look at the royalty that is in England now and know that they are not led by Spirit, but by tradition. Each of the men you mentioned, while you call them deists, I find that they listened to a guiding voice within their hearts, which they knew as God. Just because they did not call it Jesus did not mean that Jesus was not speaking to them. This country is founded by God fearing men and this country was pre-destined as God's nation long before any leader came into being. As far as I am concerned, the early leaders were "following the call". It remains to be seen if God's hand is still upon the leaders of the nation now. However, HIS Almighty hand is still upon this nation, and will ever be.

http://www.christiananswers.net/q-wall/wal-g011.html

Was George Washington a Christian?

This is a question often asked today, and it arises from the efforts of those who seek to impeach Washington's character by portraying him as irreligious. Interestingly, Washington's own contemporaries did not question his Christianity but were thoroughly convinced of his devout faith--a fact made evident in the first-ever compilation of the The Writings of George Washington, published in the 1830s.

That compilation of Washington's writings was prepared and published by Jared Sparks (1789-1866), a noted writer and historian. Sparks' Herculean historical productions included not only the writing of George Washington (12 volumes) but also Benjamin Franklin (10 volumes) and Constitution signer Gouverneur Morris (3 volumes). Additionally, Sparks compiled the Library of American Biography (25 volumes), The Diplomatic Correspondence of the American Revolution (12 volumes), and the Correspondence of the American Revolution (4 volumes). In all, Sparks was responsible for some 100 historical volumes. Additionally, Sparks was America's first professor of history--other than ecclesiastical history--to teach at the college level in the United States, and he was later chosen president of Harvard.



By 1778, George Washington had so often witnessed God's intervention that on August 20, he wrote Thomas Nelson that:

The Hand of providence has been so conspicuous in all this, that he must be worse than an infidel that lacks faith, and more than wicked, that has not gratitude enough to acknowledge his obligations. [1]

Jared Sparks' decision to compile George Washington's works is described by The Dictionary of American Biography. It details that Sparks began . . .


. . . what was destined to be his greatest life work, the publication of the writings of George Washington. ... In January 1827, Sparks found himself alone at Mount Vernon with the manuscripts. An examination of them extending over three months showed that years would be required for the undertaking; and with the owner's consent, Sparks carried off the entire collection, eight large boxes, picking up on the way to Boston a box of diplomatic correspondence from the Department of State, and the [General Horatio] Gates manuscripts from the New York Historical Society. Not content with these, he searched or caused to be searched public and private archives for material, questioned survivors of the Revolution, visited and mapped historic sites. In 1830, for instance, he followed [Benedict] Arnold's [1775] route to Quebec. The first of the twelve volumes of The Writings of George Washington to be published (vol. II) appeared in 1834 and the last (vol. I, containing the biography) in 1837.
In Volume XII of these writings, Jared Sparks delved into the religious character of George Washington, and included numerous letters written by the friends, associates, and family of Washington which testified of his religious character. Based on that extensive evidence, Sparks concluded:

To say that he [George Washington] was not a Christian would be to impeach his sincerity and honesty. Of all men in the world, Washington was certainly the last whom any one would charge with dissimulation or indirectness [hypocrisies and evasiveness]; and if he was so scrupulous in avoiding even a shadow of these faults in every known act of his life, [regardless of] however unimportant, is it likely, is it credible, that in a matter of the highest and most serious importance [his religious faith, that] he should practice through a long series of years a deliberate deception upon his friends and the public? It is neither credible nor possible.
One of the letters Sparks used to arrive at his conclusion was from Nelly Custis-Lewis. While Nelly technically was the granddaughter of the Washingtons, in reality she was much more.
When Martha [Custis] married George, she was a widow and brought two young children (John and Martha--also called Patsy) from her first marriage into her marriage with George. The two were carefully raised by George and Martha, later married, and each had children of their own. Unfortunately, tragedy struck, and both John and Patsy died early (by 1781). John left behind his widow and four young children ranging in age from infancy to six years old.

At the time, Washington was still deeply involved in guiding the American Revolution and tried unsuccessfully to convince Martha's brother to raise the children. The young widow of John was unable to raise all four, so George and Martha adopted the two younger children: Nelly Parke Custis and George Washington Parke Custis, both of whom already were living at Mount Vernon.

Nelly lived with the Washingtons for twenty years, from the time of her birth in 1779 until 1799, the year of her marriage and of George Washington's untimely death. She called George and Martha her "beloved parents whom I loved with so much devotion, to whose unceasing tenderness I was indebted for every good I possessed."

Nelly was ten years old when Washington was called to the Presidency, and she grew to maturity during his two terms. During that time, she traveled with Washington and walked amidst the great foreign and domestic names of the day. On Washington's retirement, she returned with the family to Mount Vernon. Nelly was energetic, spry, and lively, and was the joy of George Washington's life. She served as a gracious hostess and entertained the frequent guests to Mount Vernon who visited the former President.

Clearly, Nelly was someone who knew the private and public life of her "father" very well. Therefore, Jared Sparks, in searching for information on Washington's religious habits, dispatched a letter to Nelly, asking if she knew for sure whether George Washington indeed was a Christian. Within a week, she had replied to Sparks, and Sparks included her letter in Volume XII of Washington's writings in the lengthy section on Washington's religious habits. Of that specific letter, Jared Sparks explained:


I shall here insert a letter on this subject, written to me by a lady who lived twenty years in Washington's family and who was his adopted daughter, and the granddaughter of Mrs. Washington. The testimony it affords, and the hints it contains respecting the domestic habits of Washington, are interesting and valuable.

Woodlawn, 26 February, 1833
Sir,

I received your favor of the 20th instant last evening, and hasten to give you the information, which you desire.

Truro Parish [Episcopal] is the one in which Mount Vernon, Pohick Church [the church where George Washington served as a vestryman], and Woodlawn [the home of Nelly and Lawrence Lewis] are situated. Fairfax Parish is now Alexandria. Before the Federal District was ceded to Congress, Alexandria was in Fairfax County. General Washington had a pew in Pohick Church, and one in Christ Church at Alexandria. He was very instrumental in establishing Pohick Church, and I believe subscribed [supported and contributed to] largely. His pew was near the pulpit. I have a perfect recollection of being there, before his election to the presidency, with him and my grandmother...

He attended the church at Alexandria when the weather and roads permitted a ride of ten miles [a one-way journey of 2-3 hours by horse or carriage]. In New York and Philadelphia he never omitted attendance at church in the morning, unless detained by indisposition [sickness]. The afternoon was spent in his own room at home; the evening with his family, and without company. Sometimes an old and intimate friend called to see us for an hour or two; but visiting and visitors were prohibited for that day [Sunday]. No one in church attended to the services with more reverential respect. My grandmother, who was eminently pious, never deviated from her early habits. She always knelt. The General, as was then the custom, stood during the devotional parts of the service. On communion Sundays, he left the church with me, after the blessing, and returned home, and we sent the carriage back for my grandmother.

It was his custom to retire to his library at nine or ten o'clock where he remained an hour before he went to his chamber. He always rose before the sun and remained in his library until called to breakfast. I never witnessed his private devotions. I never inquired about them. I should have thought it the greatest heresy to doubt his firm belief in Christianity. His life, his writings, prove that he was a Christian. He was not one of those who act or pray, "that they may be seen of men" [Matthew 6:5]. He communed with his God in secret [Matthew 6:6].

My mother [Eleanor Calvert-Lewis] resided two years at Mount Vernon after her marriage [in 1774] with John Parke Custis, the only son of Mrs. Washington. I have heard her say that General Washington always received the sacrament with my grandmother before the revolution. When my aunt, Miss Custis [Martha's daughter] died suddenly at Mount Vernon, before they could realize the event [before they understood she was dead], he [General Washington] knelt by her and prayed most fervently, most affectingly, for her recovery. Of this I was assured by Judge [Bushrod] Washington's mother and other witnesses.

He was a silent, thoughtful man. He spoke little generally; never of himself. I never heard him relate a single act of his life during the war. I have often seen him perfectly abstracted, his lips moving, but no sound was perceptible. I have sometimes made him laugh most heartily from sympathy with my joyous and extravagant spirits. I was, probably, one of the last persons on earth to whom he would have addressed serious conversation, particularly when he knew that I had the most perfect model of female excellence [Martha Washington] ever with me as my monitress, who acted the part of a tender and devoted parent, loving me as only a mother can love, and never extenuating [tolerating] or approving in me what she disapproved of others. She never omitted her private devotions, or her public duties; and she and her husband were so perfectly united and happy that he must have been a Christian. She had no doubts, no fears for him. After forty years of devoted affection and uninterrupted happiness, she resigned him without a murmur into the arms of his Savior and his God, with the assured hope of his eternal felicity [happiness in Heaven].

Is it necessary that any one should certify, "General Washington avowed himself to me a believer in Christianity?" As well may we question his patriotism, his heroic, disinterested devotion to his country. His mottos were, "Deeds, not Words"; and, "For God and my Country."

With sentiments of esteem,

I am, Nelly Custis-Lewis



George Washington's adopted daughter, having spent twenty years of her life in his presence, declared that one might as well question Washington's patriotism as question his Christianity. Certainly, no one questions his patriotism; so is it not rather ridiculous to question his Christianity? George Washington was a devout Episcopalian; and although as an Episcopalian he would not be classified as an outspoken and extrovert "evangelical" Founder as were Founding Fathers like Benjamin Rush, Roger Sherman, and Thomas McKean, nevertheless, being an Episcopalian makes George Washington no less of a Christian.

Yet for the current revisionists who have made it their goal to assert that America was founded as a secular nation by secular individuals and that the only hope for America's longevity rests in her continued secularism, George Washington's faith must be sacrificed on the altar of their secularist agenda.

After researching Washington's life, Dr. Tim LaHaye wrote: "Our first President was a godly man of humble character and sterling commitment to God. William White reports of his sincere piety in 'Washington Writings':
'It seems proper to subjoin to this letter what was told to me by Mr. Robert Lewis, at Fredricksburg, in the year 1827. Being a nephew of Washington, and his private secretary during the first part of his presidency, Mr. Lewis lived with him on terms of intimacy, and had the best opportunity for observing his habits. Mr. Lewis said that he had accidentally witnessed his private devotions in his library both morning and evening; that on those occasions he had seen him in a kneeling posture with a Bible open before him, and that he believed such to have been his daily practice.'" [2]

Click to expand...

At the end of the Revolutionary War, when the announcement of official peace arrived in America, George Washington issued his final sentiments. In his circular letter to the States on June 8, 1783, even though Washington gratefully acknowledged that we had won the war, he urged them to recall something of much greater importance and to remember...


... the characteristics of the Divine Author of our blessed Religion, and without an humble imitation of whose example in these things, we can never hope to be a happy Nation. [3]
From George Washington's first official order through his last, he displayed a Christian emphasis.

While encamped on the banks of a river, Washington was approached by Delaware Indian chiefs who desired that their youth be trained in American schools. In Washington's response, he first told them that "Congress... will look on them as on their own children." [4] That is, we would train their children as if they were our own. He then commended the chiefs for their decision:

You do well to wish to learn our arts and our ways of life and above all, the religion of Jesus Christ. These will make you a greater and happier people than you are. Congress will do everything they can to assist you in this wise intention. [4]

According to George Washington, what students would learn in American schools "above all" was "the religion of Jesus Christ."

Click to expand...

For much more on George Washington and the evidences of his strong faith, examine the following sources...

George Washington, The Writings of George Washington, Jared Sparks, editor (Boston: Ferdinand Andrews, Publisher, 1838), Vol. XII, pp. 399-411.

George Washington, The Religious Opinions of Washington, E. C. M'Guire, editor (New York: Harper & Brothers, 1836).

William Johnson, George Washington The Christian (1917).

William Jackson Johnstone, How Washington Prayed (New York: The Abingdon Press, 1932).

James D. Richardson, editor, The Messages and Papers of the Presidents (Published by the Authority of Congress, 1899), Vol. I, pp. 51-57 (1789), 64 (1789), 213-224 (1796), etc.

George Washington, Address of George Washington, President of the United States, Late Commander in Chief of the American Army, to the People of the United States, Preparatory to his Declination (Baltimore: George & Henry S. Keatinge, 1796), pp. 22-23.

George Washington, The Maxims of Washington (New York: D. Appleton and Co., 1855).

REFERENCES

George Washington's letter of August 20, 1778 to Brig. General Thomas Nelson, in John C. Fitzpatrick, editor, The Writings of George Washington, Vol. XII (Washinton: U.S. Government Printing Office, 1932), p. 343.

Tim LaHaye, Faith of Our Founding Fathers (Brentwood, Tennessee: Wolgemuth & Hyatt, Publishers, Inc., 1987), p. 103.

George Washington's Circular to the States, June 8, 1783, in John C. Fitzpatrick, editor, The Writings of George Washington, Vol. XXVI (Washinton: U.S. Government Printing Office, 1932), p. 496.

George Washington's Speech to Delaware Indian Chiefs on May 12, 1779, in John C. Fitzpatrick, editor, The Writings of George Washington, Vol. XV (Washinton: U.S. Government Printing Office, 1932), p. 55.



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<i>"While the Masons may be, and I repeat may be, demonic in this present age, perhaps in the early times of our country's establishment, it was noble and righteous."</i>

deborah...

.....Thank you; in many of his writings, he was trying to warn his fellow Masons of the already-occurring infiltration in his day... Benjamin Franklin had such a strong denunciation that the record of it from Charles Coatsworth Pinckney's Journals was stolen from the museum in Philadelphia; he named them by their collective name and his words were quite prophetic for the 200 year forecast he gave...

I am commenting on a couple of things.

First, Deborah:

Christianity in the truest sense is not going to a church, or professing some religion. It is a belief in a higher power, a Supreme Being, the CREATED the world and mankind, and that mankind did not come here by a process of evolution, but by a CREATOR.[/]

This is close, but not quite. Being a CHRISTIAN means believing that Jesus Christ is Lord. That also makes him Judge, Jury and Executioner of evil (because he over came it).

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Joh 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

The bolded part means that Jesus Chirist isn't just "a creator" but THE Creator.

Not only Creator, but having the authority of God himself:

Joh 5:21 For as the Father raises the dead and makes alive, even so the Son of Man makes alive whomever He wills.
Joh 5:22 For the Father judges no man, but has committed all judgment to the Son,
Joh 5:23 so that all should honor the Son, even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.

I'll go easy on the scripture because my goal is NOT to preach, but to back up what Jesus himself said, and what those who knew him personally said about him.

You are correct when you say not a religion. Christianity goes beyond religion (religion defined as man seeking god or "a" god). Christianity is RELATIONSHIP WITH God.

For example, when Jesus was born, the angels proclaimed the purpose of his birth:

Luk 2:13 And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host, praising God and saying,
Luk 2:14 Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men.

In otherwords, man was reconciled to God. God was at peace with man (as a creature) and was declaring his good will toward men. (Sin had separated the relationship between man and God such as Adam had with God in the Garden of Eden.)

This reconciliation was made possible when Jesus Christ, a truly innocent man...innocent before God in that while in flesh, he did not succumb to sin(which is inherent in flesh) became like the passover lamb and was crucified. He became sin for us so that we would never have to experience eternal separation from God.

The reason I went through this is because the definition of Christiniaty you gave was very generic and could fit many religions such as Judiasim, or even Muslim because both religions believen in "a creator". Christianity on the other hand believes that the only way to get to God is to honor the Son and accept the pardon provided for sins, ie: we will never have to personally pay for our sins. Jesus Christ did that for us. We accept the pardon.

Christians believe that as a result of confessing to God that we most certainly would rather do things our own way, rather than do things His way, and that we HAVE been doing things our own way, but that we recognize how imperfect our ways are, and that only God's ways are right, and that we accept the pardon He provides, that he gives us a couple of other things.

One is the promise of eternal life in his presence.

Another is direct access to His throne even now in this life. We don't have to wait till we die to taste heaven. This is accomplished because when we are "reborn", that is, when we humble our egotistical selves before God, he gives us a new nature, AND a bit of himself through the HolySpirit.

He calls us sons and daughters, and we can ask of Him our hearts desire. We can talk to him, and he will answer, and it also means we are subject to getting corrected by God (always for our wellbeing, and not as human parents do.)

So, this simple explaination is provided so one can see the difference between Christianity and other "religions".

A deist on the other hand is:

DEIST, n. One who believes in the existence of a God, but denies revealed religion, but follows the light of nature and reason, as his only guides in doctrine and practice; a freethinker.

Deism according to Webster is:

DEISM, n. [L. God.] The doctrine or creed of a deist; the belief or system of religious opinions of those who acknowledge the existence of one God, but deny revelation: or deism is the belief in natural religion only, or those truths, in doctrine and practice, which man is to discover by the light of reason, independent and exclusive of any revelation from God. Hence deism implies infidelity or a disbelief in the divine origin of the scriptures.

You cannot be a deist AND a Christian. If any of the men listed as founders have deist lables attatched to them, yet profess a belief that Jesus is Lord, then he is not a deist.

The men mentioned above were NOT the ONLY formers of our nation. They are merely a few among MANY.

The people who escaped from Europe to come here and establish a free nation were NOT running from religious "dogma". The were running from 2 things. One, abusive oppression. In those days, Kings and political agreements with other Kings over money land and politics along with popes determined what religion any given nation would be. If you were a protestant living in England for example, you were not free to be a catholic if you so decided. If your king decided he wanted to be a catholic, but the king before him was a protestant, you had to become a catholic.
If you failed to adhere to the kings flavor of religion, you were killed or imprisoned.

No other religion was tolerated...Christianity ONLY..in what ever flavor the king decided.

THAT was what people didn't want among other things. That is why they left and came here.

We gained independance from England not because they came to change religion (although that was her custom too), but because she wanted us to cut trees for (for example) her, she would make the lumber and build ships to sell back to us...with taxes on the products of course.

After over 100 years of freedom, why should they have to buy their lumber from England when they owned their own saws and could build their own ships? Why should they return to the same system they had escaped? England wanted to plunder the resources and enslave the colonists in the process.

So, there were many issues behind the decision to become independent.

And tyranny was the reason for leaving in the first place.

And now the "pc invisable king" wants to tell US where, when and how we can pray?????????????????????????????

Yes, folks have a GOD GIVEN RIGHT to decide not to participate in religious expression, but they do NOT have a God given right to interefere with those who DO want to express their faith in Him.

Some of the signers of the constitution WERE deists, but not all. Some of the framers of the constitution were Christians. But ALL believed that Government had no right whatsoever to interfere with the free expression of faith in God...what ever flavor (denomination) that might be.

All you have to do is read the history of the times to know that at THAT time, the only "faiths" that were tolerated were those that belived in God. Even THEY killed anybody thought to be any "religion" but Godly..ie Salem Witch trials.

They clearly intended a Godly nation and did their best to keep anything they perceived to be less than Godly from their midst. Hence "blue laws".

They may have made mistakes, but they tried to do right.

I DO see the influence of deism in the framing in that they allowed for God's laws (biblical) but also "natural law". Obviously they also recognized written law as in a system of Justice.

NONE were wanting to eliminate the salt (flavor) of Godliness and Christ from the system. I'm sure if they realized how their words and intentions would be twisted, they would have been more specific in their wordings. They took it for granted that their progeny would carry their faith forward.

PL

Edited to clarify..Clearly the framer's never intended ours to be a GODLESS nation.









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You don't have to look too far for the answer really.

Thomas Jefferson was also a Deist, though obviously conflicted, and from the very birth of this nation there was instilled a strong tie to The Higher Power.

a rose is a rose...

The brillance of the second paragraph is amazing in it's truth and simplicity. Everyone should wake up every day and read those words.

I totally agree that this country was never intended to be a Godless nation. In fact, to become such would mean a divergence away from the very principals on which this country was founded.

God, the Creator, the Deity, IS the cornerstone on which all our rights rest.

-snip-

THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE

In Congress, July 4, 1776

The Unanimous Declaration Of The Thirteen United States Of America

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the Powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect for the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

-end snip-

Mike

edited to add:

just found this while doing research...amazing but true...


Oh thus be it ever, when freemen shall stand
Between their loved home and the war's desolation!
Blest with victory and peace, may the heav'n rescued land
Praise the Power that hath made and preserved us a Nation.
Then conquer we must, when our cause it is just,
And this be our motto: In God is our trust.
And the star-spangled banner in triumph shall wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave!

Final Verse, Star Spangled Banner--Battle Song of America

Hmmmm.....I am a serious fundamentalist Christian and I've known since I was a kid that our government was founded, framed,built and run by the Freemasons. It's what make America what it is today. It is bought and paid for by Lucifer, himself.

There are several (so-called) christian organizations heavily involved in freemasonry. Baptists and Lutherans are 2 that come to mind. Just because a president SAYS he's Christian, doesn't make it so. They are Masons first. Even Clinton claimed he was Christian, mis-quoted the Bible, then would quote a masonic catch phrase.

For some reason, I don't think and believe like the majority of conservative Christians in this country do, but then, I never did watch TBN.

our government was founded, framed,built and run by the Freemasons. It's what make America what it is today. It is bought and paid for by Lucifer, himself.

Horseshit!

You wanna try and tell us that Iraq, North Korea or any other nation on earth were as blessed as America was and shared those blessings with the rest of the globe as we did?

Doesn't add up. We're to judge by the fruits - and up until recently - our history was one of a people devout to God and principles - thus our many blessings as a nation. Hardly Satanic foundings.

Fruits of our greatness don't bear-out a foundation of and by Satan. We would not have become the greatest power on the planet, or enjoyed the abundance we have if our 'foundation' was Luciferian.

We have been led into debauchery and Luciferian beliefs, ideal and practices - but America didn't start out that way - I don't care what 'Freemason' stuff you post - the fruits don't bear that assertion out.

Clearly the framer's never intended ours to be a GODLESS nation.

Exactly. In fact they believed this Republic could only survive as long as the whole people were of God - and held the moral principles that defined the many faiths that enabled freedom to be established.

Sin and wickedness require Laws upon Laws to maintain control.

A People that abide by the spiritual laws, also obey the moral and physical laws without need of police looking over their every move, thought or action as we have today.

The yellowtimes article posted at the beginning of this thread is simply not accurate.

Here's a question for all of you. Among the founding Fathers, exactly how many do you think claimed to be deists or are definitely known to have been deists?

Please take a guess.

I will return a day or so to post the correct answer.

<i>"We're to judge by the fruits - and up until recently - our history was one of a people devout to God and principles - thus our many blessings as a nation."</i>

Exactly, INVAR...

.....The blessed nation of Israel, (a goodly portion), just as we were promised and the prophecies for which only America fulfills; the prophecies are the definition and this is the only country that has the east and west shorelines; quartered by rivers and possess the trees that Our Father planted for us... we have the mineral wealth and we fulfilled all of the other "marks" of identification that are dilineated in Scripture; instead of trusting worthless man's names of places, (typically so named for deceptive reasons), we have to allow Scripture to define the parameters and see who it is they fit...

God blesses a country because of His PEOPLE that follow Him, not because of their government.

Throughout history, God has blessed HIS people and delivered them from the slavery THEY SOLD THEMSELVES INTO when they turned back to HIM.

America's corrupt government is not much different from other corrupt governments. Her only difference is is the number of people who follow and petition God. That is the only difference between us and a 3rd world dictatorship. I


I remember WAY BACK when I was a kid, the portraits of our founding fathers showed them posing in their mason aprons. How come you never see those pictures now?

Camasjune said:

There are several (so-called) christian organizations heavily involved in freemasonry. Baptists and Lutherans are 2 that come to mind

Click to expand...

Uhhh........

you must have different kinds of Baptists up there in the Northwest. The ones around here would have nothing to do with an organization that forced them to deny Christ.

As far as Masons go, not all are deists, just like not all gun owners are criminals.

I think we should be more worried about the Promise Keepers.

You are probably right about Promise Keepers. I will expose my butt further to the flames and say I believe Pat Robertson and his ilk are of the anti-christ spirit.

The 3 Freemason Baptists that come easily to my mind are Jimmy Carter, Billy Graham, and Bill Clinton. I do not know about any of our local Baptists or Masons because I don't know any. I do not get to town much.


"When God calls us His sheep, it is not a compliment"--me

<i>"I will expose my butt further to the flames and say I believe Pat Robertson and his ilk are of the anti-christ spirit."</i>

.....I got put on "ignore" by someone just the other day for a similar saying...

rick, I don't think ANY of the founding fathers called themselves deists.

Actually, did that word even exist back then?

That's why I wrote, a rose is a rose...call them what you will the bottom line is exactly as INVAR wrote (very well BTW)

"In fact they believed this Republic could only survive as long as the whole people were of God - and held the moral principles that defined the many faiths that enabled freedom to be established.

Sin and wickedness require Laws upon Laws to maintain control.

A People that abide by the spiritual laws, also obey the moral and physical laws without need of police looking over their every move, thought or action as we have today."

Go back and read that second paragraph of the Declaration of Independence. It states in perfect tone and simplicity that humans are BORN with certain unalienable rights...IOW, those are rights that a government CANNOT and should not take away.

Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness seem to encompass much as far as what a human requires for basic dignity, pursuit of spirituality, etc, huh?

That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed.

IOW, governments should exist ONLY to secure the rights given to humans by God.

When INVAR writes,

"Sin and wickedness require Laws upon Laws to maintain control"

That's a brilliant perspective IMHO. Laws should ONLY be necessary to secure the rights given to humans by God. Now, with laws upon laws coming to pass that actually INFRINGE upon the rights of the MORAL human individual who lives within the confines of the law we are seeing that our Government has FAILED to SECURE our basic rights...and now institutes laws to maintain control.

THAT very argument is the crux of...

"whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. "

Brilliant, brilliant words. Basic, true, inspirational.

I don't think we are, at our core essence, a society brought about by evil. God is there and He always has been. But, the human failings of man, his greed, his lust, etc., have become entrenched in our government.

Those words above define exactly why it is that our Government as it exists today should be "altered or abolished".

-----

IMHO, to believe in God does NOT require Christianity. It requires faith. Faith in God comes in many forms but at the core of faith you're gonna find a belief in God, the Creator, the Deity, whom ever, etc. and HE has alwasy been there from the very beginning of this nation.

Mike

(REL) The U.S. wasn't founded by Christians

CamasJune, B***F******Sh*t. It really pisses me off that you are decieved as Patrick says by the lies that are intended for you to believe. Whether diest or Christian, the leaders that established this country were NOT part of a Satanic society. You have been set up. Do some research. Prarie Lady, I aqueise (msp?) to your excellent post. I enjoyed reading it, and felt the praise come in my heart for our Saviour after reading it. Thank you.

[REL] The U.S. wasn't founded by

According to John Eidsmoe's "Christianity and the Constitution", some of the founding fathers were masons who promoted brotherhood and morality, and who worshipped G_d as our Creator. At that time, most Christians were masons and joined to find friends, enlarge their social lives and make business/political connections. Eidsmoe cites Dr. M. E. Bradford of the U. of Dallas as having written a series of biographical sketches on the 55 delegates to the Consitutional Covention and their church affiliations. (One needs to keep in mind that there were several Deists, most notably Hugh Williamson of NC, James Wilson of PA, and Benjamin Franklin of PA, all who were raised as Calvanists. At the time of the Constitutional Convention, many states did not allow deists to hold public office and so it's possible some founders simply joined churches in order to beome elected officials. ) Now, Bradford contends there were "28 Episcopalian, 8 Presbyterians, Congregationalists, 2 Lutherans, 2 Dutch Refored, 2 Methodists, 2 Roman Catholics and 3 deists." Bradford also states he's not sure Franklin was a die-hard deist because at the Convention he called for prayer stating that "G_d governs in the affairs of men" which isn't so with deism.

Eidsmoe goes on to cite the results of studies done by Donald S. Lutz and Charles S. Hyneman who researched about 15,000 items the founders wrote and over 2,000 books, newspapers, pamphlets etc. that were printed between 1760 and 1805 to find out what and who influenced the thinking of the founding fathers. They noted that the single most cited source was the Bible, especially Deuteronomy because of its emphasis on biblical law. The most cited thinkers weren't "deists or philosophies, but conservative legal and political thinkers who were mostly Christians."

So, through research of what books the founders had in their libraries, books they studied in school and which sources they recommended and cited, a group of thinkers emerged that greatly influenced their political views and perspectives. I'll try to list some of those who influenced the founding fathers and why.

1. The Baron Montesquieu (1689-1755) of France. Cited more often than any other source except for the Bible. Best known work, "The Spirit of Laws" which comprises 4 forms of government; monarchy in which the guiding principle is honor, aristocracy in which the guiding principle is moderation, republican democracy in which the guiding principle is virtue, and despotism in which the guiding principle is fear. Main contribution to the thinking of our Founding Fathers (FF) is the concept of separation of powers between legislative, executive and judicial branches of gov. Has been called a deist but was born a catholic and remained a catholic until death receiving Communion shortly before death. He believed all laws has its source in G_d. He states "the Catholic Religion is most agreeable to a Monarchy, and the Protestant to a Republic." He explained the role of religion in fostering values which find expression in civil laws. Also true in non-Christian societies.

2. Sir William Blackstone (1723-1780), English barrister, known for his "Commentaries on the Laws of England"., his G_d-centered view of law. His Commentaries in every lawyers office, candidates for the bar were routinely examined on Blackstone, cited in courts as an authority, settling many a legal argument. Delegate Charles Pinckney of SC was a student of Blackstone at Oxford and was a firm disciple of Blackston. Approved by James Madison. FF's drew 3 major points from him: his conviction that all law has its source in G_d, revealed law of G_d as found in the Bible, and his role of judges "discover and apply law, they do not "make" law. He also advocated 3 branches of gov. with legislative superior to judiciary, his systematizing of the common law which was needed in the new nation. The common law of England is generally founded on biblical principles. Alfred the Great, started his legal code with a recitation of the Ten Commandments and excerpts to the Mosaic law.The common law of England is part of the Christian heritage of America.

3. John Locke (1632-1704), British philosopher and political theorist who inspired the FF's on independence and the rights of man. Best known works: "Essay Concerning Human Understanding" and "On Civil Government." Born into a Puritan family. Educated at Calvanist institutions and emerged with a moderate Calvanistic world view. Has been identified as a deist and freethinker, but was a staunch and fervent Christian. Placed higher value on human reason than most orthodox Calvanists but used powers of reason to arrive at Christian truths. Wrote a trestise "The Reasonableness of Christianity", an attempt to prove the truth of Christianity. Pious man, held high view of Scripture. Studied the Bible extensively. Cited the Bible in his political writings. Cited Bible eighty times on first trestise on gov. Argued that man has the right to possess property since G_d gave the earth to Adam and later to Noah. Based social compact which gov. is established upon "that Paction which G_d made with Noah after the Deluge." Basic doctrines on parental authority, private property, and social compact based on the historical existence of kAdam and Noah. Two major contributions to FF's was his doctrine of natural law & natural rights of man as "life, liberty, and property" part of 5th and 14th Amendments to Constitution as well as Declaration of Independence - Jefferson expanded "property" to "pursuit of happiness." Theory of social compact: the idea that man in a state of nature realize their rights are insecure, and compact together to establish a gov. and cede to that gov. certain powers so that gov. may use that power to secure the rest of their rights. Like Calvanist covenant, allows the gov. only the power G_d and/or people delegate. This is the cornerstone of limited gov. expressed in 10th amendment to the Constitution which states that gov. exist to secure human rights and "derive their just powers from the consent of the governed."

4. Hugo Grotius (1583-1645), Dutch lawyer, theologian, statesman and poet, called "the father of the modern code of nations" by James Madison. Great works "The Rights of War and Peace" and "The truth of the Christian religion." Second book divided into 3 parts: first, Grotius demonstrates the existence, attributes and providence of G_d. Second part he argues the divine origin of the Christian relligion. Third part, is a defense of the authenticity of the New Testament books, refutation of paganism, Judaism, and Islam. Authenticity and special divine purpose of the miracles of Jesus Christ. Emphasized that "What G_d has shown to be His will that is law." He believed G_d's laws are superior to human laws. Beliefs formed his principles of international law. G_d's law transcends the laws of individual states and nations. Grotius believed in just wars and capital punishment. But also believed rulers have a duty to settle disputes without war, if possible, using "Holy Writ" as a basis. Christian ruler has both an advantage and a greater responsibility:
"Especially, however, Christian kinds and states are bound to pursue this method of avoiding wars..Both for this and for other reasons it would be advantageous to hoold certain conferences of Christian powers, where those who have no interest at stake may settle disputes of others, and where, in fact, steps may be taken to compel parties to accept peace on fair terms.
Alliances, leagues, and confederations of Christian states were the best means of creating peace; occasionally alliances may be made with non-Christian states." Grotius saw his ideal as the "Christian prince" who would apply the will of G_d as found both in nature and the Old and New Testaments. Went further than Luther who would have magistrates apply G_d's laws but not G_d's gospel in their civic duties, and moved in the direction of Calvin. He closes "The Rights of War and Peace" with a power prayer to G_d. Hamilton wrote "Apply yourself, without delay, to the study of the law of nature. I would recommend to your perusal Grotius, Pufendorf, Locke.."

5. Samuel de Pufendorf (1632-1694), wrote masterpiece "The Law of Nature and Nations." Son of Lutheran minister. Pufendorf studies theology at U. of Leipzig, later turned to law. Held numerous diplomatic posts in Germany and Sweden. Greatest influence as Prof. of the Law and Nature, U. of Heidelberg and U. of Lund in Sweden. Royal historian for Sweden, later for Elector Frederick II of Brandenburg, Germany. Final treatise "Law of Diplomacy, Agreement and Disagreement of Protestants" pleading for union among Protestants of Lutheran and Calvanist persuasion. Pufendorf was influenced by Grotius, helped to establlish the law of nature and the basis for international law. He emphasized that G_d is the creator of all and
"exercises a Sovereignty not only over the whole World, or over mankind in general, but over every Individual Human Person: Whose Knowledge nothing can escape: Who, by Virtue of his Imperial Right, hath enjoined Men such certain Duties by Natural Law, the Observance of which will meet with his Approbation, the Breach or the Neglect, with his Displeasure: And that he will for his Purpose require an exact Account from every Man, of his Proceedings, without Corruption and without Partiality."
Also acknowledged, in keeping with Lutheran theology, that G_d gives a certain natural grace to the unsaved so that they can understand and obey the law of nature. Those who are not Christians but hold "a serious Perswasion concerning the Divine Existence and Providence" are thereby made more observant of their duty under the law of nature. He said some belief-systems fail to encourage men to be faithful in their duties: among these are atheism, Epicureanism, and Stoicism or determinism. They undermine the concept of duty that is essential to observance of the law of nature. Pufendorf expanded the concept of international law of Grotius to include G_d-fearing non_Christians as well as Christians. Showing that the fear of G_d produces a sense of duty even in non-Christians, in keeping with Paul's words about "the law of G_d written in their hearts". Hamilton, Franklin, Wilson, Adams and other FF's paid tribute to Pufendorf, acknowledged his influence on their thinking and recommended his writings to others.

6. Emmerich de Vattel (1714-1767), son of a German Protestant minister. Diplomat. Famous work "The Law of Nations" (1758) was popularization of work of same title by German philosopher Christian Wolff. Vattel stressed that men must live "agreeably to their nature, and in conformity to the views of their common Creator; a law that our own safety, our happiness, our most precious advantages, ought to render sacred to every one of us" which led to the "general law of society" which is "that each should do for others whatever their necessities require, and they are capable of doing, without neglecting what they owe to themselves." The same is true for nations: each nation should lend its assistance to other nations so long as it can do so without injuring itself; but the primary obligation of each nation is to its own citizens. Stated each nation has the liberty to govern itself as it pleases even if that is offensive to others, so long as it hurts no other nation. (my comment: boy, how we've gotten so far from this concept, eh?) Pufendorf promoted the idea that all nations are on an equal footing in terms of sovereignty, regardless of size, just as all persons are equal whether they are giants or dwarfs. He insisted that nations have a right to defend themselves and their citizens against foreign attacks. Vattel's emphasis on the liberty and equality of individuals and nations was of special interest to our FF''s - Adams, Wilson, Hamilton, Madison give evidence of Vattel's influence in their thinking.

7. Adam Smith (1723-1790), a Scotsman, not quoted much in political writings of the FF's because his forte was in economics; his free enterprise economics found its way into the commerce clause and contract clause of the Constitution. His book "The Wealth of Nations" was read and believed by the FF's.Smith advocated free enterprise with private individuals choose their own vocations and compete in the marketplace for jobs and profits and gov. doesn't intervene except as a referee to prohibit force, fraud, monopoly, debauchery such as pornography, obscenity, drugs, liquor, prostitution and other forms of vice. He believed competition gave people incentive yo produce more and cheaper goods and raises the standard of living in a nation. The FF's favored free enterprise economy with minimum gov. regulations.

8. Algernon Sidney (1622-1683) was a lieutenant-general and calvary officer under Cromwell and the Puritan forces in the English civil war. Served on the Council of the State of the Commonwealth under Cromwell's Protectorate in 1652. Was admired vy republicans through world and looked upon as a martyr for the cause of liberty. "Although he favored a limited monarchy over a purely republican gov. He believed G_d had given men liberty to establish forms of gov. and if men chose to establlish republican gov. or limited monarchies, these may not be usurped by tyrants; rulers may exercise only such power as the people give them, and if rulers go beyond that and usurp additional power, the people have the right to resist. He insisted that the people of England had chosen to place power in the hands of Parliament and a hereditary nobility, not in an absolute monarch, and the king's attempt to usurp authority from Parliament and the nobility was unfounded and illegitimate. He argued that political power should be apportioned according to property holdings. Sidney was convicted and beheaded for allegedly plotting to overthrow the pro-Catholic King Charles II. His "Discourse on Government" attested to his belief in the right to resistance. The idea that free men have a G_d-given right to resist oppression and misrule by a tyrant was a concept the FF's used in forming the Declaration and Constitution."

9. Sir Edward Coke (1552-1634), predecessor of Blackstone. attorney General, Chief Justice of the Court of Common Pleas, and Chief Justice of the Court of King's Bench. Was an obstinate opponent of the illegal exercise of gov. authority. Championed the common law of England against encroachments of royal power. Held that the king lacked constitutional authority to change or add to the common law. King decided only way to silence Coke was to remove him from the bench. Coke wrote his "Institutes" through them he became immortal. "The FF's saw in Coke's "Institutes of the Laws of England" the unchanging character of law, the supremacy of the law over the whims of men."

10. John Milton (1608-1674), political and religious figure. Defender of political and religious liberty, argued that the press should not be licensed. Defended the right to resist illegitimate usurption of authority. Oliver Cromwell appointed Milton to his Council of State and served until Cromwell's death. Highly respected Cromwell. Milton believed the union of church and state caused the church to become worldly and believed the church could truly flourish only when disestablished from the state. Best-known works were "Paradise Lost" and "Paradise Regained". He impressed Americans with his religious fervor and dedication to personal freedom.

Now then, Eidsmoe goes on to present 15 basic principles which underlie the thinking of the FF's, that these principles form the basic framework of the Consitution, and that these principles are either derived from or compatible with Christianity and the Bible
(I will quote directly from Christianity of the Constitution):

1. "A belief in G_d and his providence, by which he guides and controls the universe and the affairs of mankind.

2. A bellief in and respect for revealed religion - that is, a recognition that G_d has revealed His truth through the Holy Scriptures.

3. A belief in G_d-given power of human reason to apprehend truth. While reason does not supersede revelation, it serves as an aid in the search for truth where the Scriptures are silent.

4. A belief that man is not a perfect or perfectible being, and that governmental theories must take that fact into account.

5. A belief that G_d has ordained human government to restrain the sinful nature of man.

6. A belief that G_d has established certain physical laws for the operation of the universe, as well as certain moral laws for the governance of mankind.

7. A belief that G_d has revealed his moral laws to man through the Scriptures (revealed or divine law) and through the law of nature, which is discoverable through human reason and the human conscience.

8. A belief that human law must correspond to the divine law and the law of nature. Human laws which contradict the higher law are invalid, nonbinding, and are to be resisted.

9. A belief that the revealed law and the law of nature form the basis for the law of nations (international law) and that this law of nations includes the right of a nation to defend itself against aggressors (just warfare).

10. A belief that the revealed law and the law of nature include natural, G_d-given, unalienable human rights which include life, liberty, and property.

11. A belief that governments are formed by covenant or compact of the people in order to safeguard human rights.

12. A belief that governments have only such powers as are delegated to them by the people in the said covenants or compacts, and that when governments attempt to usurp powers not so delegated, they become illegitimate and are to be resisted.

13. A belief that, human nature being what it is, rulers tend to usurp more and more power if given the opportunity.

14. A belief that the best way to prevent governments from usurping power is to separate their powers and functions into legislative, executive and judicial branches.

15. A belief that, human nature being what it is, a free enterprise economy is the best way to give people an incentive to produce and develop national prosperity."

"John Eidsmoe holds five degrees in law, theology, and political science. He currently serves as professor of constitutional law and related subjects at the Thomas Goode Jones School of Law, Faulkner University, Montgomery, Alabama, where he recieved the Outstanding Professor Award in 1993. A constitutional attorney and lieutenant colonel in the U.S. Air Force Reserve."

Deborah and Invar,

Your course language proves what? That our country's foundation is Christian and so is yours?

My stepfather is a Mason, drives one of those little red fire trucks in all the parades and works constantly on charity funraising efforts for childrens hospitals and such. I asked him several years ago about the implications we constantly see of masonry being luciferian and such, and he said specifically that atheist don't even make it through the application process in his lodge. His lodge also sponsors several large gun shows each year and are a major supporter of local volunteer fire departments, and shelters for abused women and children. I have yet to see anything at all this organization does locally which is not of true Christian values on the highest level. He personally is of the Church of Jesus Christ and LDS faith but the membership fo his lodge encompasses all of the Christian Churchs' in the area.

Deborah and Invar, Your course language proves what? That our country's foundation is Christian and so is yours?

No, it proves that some of us won't tolerate nonsensical bullshit being passed-off as a fact when the fruits and historical writings prove completely otherwise.

Attacking my country's very existence and principles by telling us that 'Our Foundation is of Lucifer' warrants such 'course language'. You might as well tell America she has no right to exist because she was formed from pure evil - something even Osama Bin Laden hasn't said.

You need to know where lines are drawn lest the swords of patriots are drawn on you.

Deborah and I have drawn ours - and I WILL NOT hesitate to wield it with savage fury.

Okay

I have returned to address the issue of how many of the Founding Fathers are known to have been Deists. It seems to me that jayeld's post above supercedes my knowlege, so I will let his post stand in place of mine.

Let it suffice for me to say that the Pervasive-Deism-among-the-Founders idea is at least nine-tenths myth attached to only a smidgen of reality.

Okay Invar, Who is the Prince of this World?

If our founding fathers were devout christians and our government is inspired by God, why is it not perfect? Because the present day atrocities were built into it and our present day government is not of God.

Why have you set up our constitution for the object of your idolotry?

camasjune-

You wish to cross swords - okay fine.

Satan, is the Prince of the Power of the Air according to scripture - and the Ruler of the world in this age.

While this present evil world operates contrary to God's Ways and laws, this nation was NOT founded by Lucifer himself as you assert.

Ancient Israel was set-up and established as a Theocracy by God Himself - yet it was not perfect either and in-fact utterly failed.

Because of men's hard hearts of stone not subject to God's laws.

Likewise this nation had been blessed and indeed inspired by the Almighty in it's Foundings. How we men handled that down through history is an almost exact replica of how and why Ancient Israel came to wickedness and destruction/captivity.

Contrary to your assertions, our present-day 'atrocities' as you put it WERE NOT built into our Foundations. Rather they are the choices and progressions a wealthy and complacent People have made time after time. It's called Free Moral Agency.

As to my 'idolatry' with the 'Constitution' - it derrives it's own power from God Himself - where our birthright's reside in the first place. Perhaps you should read it sometime.

Bottom line - this Age is not yet finished - and while God allows it to go it's own way - we are subject to the various Powers of men that God allows, and this particular government - was devised and inspired to operate in the best capacity within God's laws and Principles, so long as the people remained faithful to the best of their understanding.

But our Constitution was NOT authored by Satan. Nothing but confusion would have run rampant for 200 years plus - and we as a nation would have amounted to NOTHING.

Perhaps you need to study how God deals with the nations of men, and sends blessings AND cursings.

America was and is a Birthright Blessing from God who kept an ancient promise that was witheld for over a millenia due to the consequences of sin.

This nation was Founded on the blessings and Principles of God. We've lost it along the way - but it wasn't begun that way.

(Rel) The U.S. wasn't founded by Christians

Well spoken, INVAR.

CamasJune, America is founded upon a covenant between God and a nation. While people make up the majority of the nation, its leaders make up the established principles upon which it is founded. This being said, America was founded by God Fearing, God Revering Men. There is no doubt that evil is pervading our country; however, it is sort of like good blood and bad blood. When a nation is established from the beginning on righteousness, it will return to righteousness. It has to happen. There has been too much bloodshed in the name of freedom. Even tho Vietnam was a shame to our men that went over there, they went to fight for America. The blood of all of our men cries out from the earth that they did not die in vain, going all the way back to the very first wars on this soil. Too many lives have been lost for the sake of this country to say it was established by Luciferian men. No. No. No. To say that makes the validity of all our precious boys that are dead having died for nothing. I am sure they all felt they were giving honor to God and country. Their blood validates any evil and brings honor to the unjust.

this has got to be one of the best threads i've seen roll by in a long time. thankyou all. Prairie Lady, potemkin, Invar, Jayeld, deborah 10, mt4design, Patrick, and all who truly believe as the Founders did, that America was a beacon to shine God's Truth to the world. Thankyou! this is a keeper.

What Kind of Fools Were the Founders?

<a NAME="dancr"></a>I hesitate to get involved in discussions of the religiosity of the founders of the United States because, as I have expressed <a href="http://www.lacarte.org/freedom/thought/1st/index.html#compromise">elsewhere</a>, it ultimately does not matter what they as individuals believed about cosmology. However, I can't help but drop by this discussion in passing to make note of a ridiculous argument.

Some would have us believe that those who designed a government that would free people of religious tyranny didn't really intend to do a complete job of it. Although their god is not named in our constitution and religious tests are expressly forbidden, these people today claim that we should act as though our government is nevertheless founded upon their religion anyway.

Reconstructionists say that the government was founded by their pet god who only allowed the constitution to <b>seem</b> as though it were secular, because <b>all</b> of the founders were believers anyway. One proof offered for the religiosity of the founders is that if they had not been thought to be believers they would surely have been killed.

Any suggestion that they may have playacted their religiosity is to denigrate the good name of the founders. Yet these supposedly devout leaders somehow managed to fashion a secular government which just accidentally left out any mention of a deity who is supposed to have been behind it all. The founders were either very smart or very dumb.

<img align=left src="http://www.lacarte.org/images/miniminipearl.gif">From: <a href="http://www.lacarte.org/freedom/thought/1st"><u>First Amendment, à la Carte</u></a><font size=-2><a href="http://www.lacarte.org/about/copyrights/">©</a></font> by <a href="http://www.lacarte.org/tracie/"><u>Dancr</u></a> (<a href="http://www.lacarte.org/about/monalisa"><u>pic</u></a>), near <a href="http://www.monterey.com/"><u>Monterey</u></a>, <a href="http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=000Hgd"> <u>California</u></a>-·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·</i></c></a></b><a NAME="dancrend"></a>

Are these the same Christians that put Native Americans on reservations, and brought lots of those African people over here?

Yep, lots to be proud of there!

<i>"Are these the same Christians that put Native Americans on reservations, and brought lots of those African people over here?"</i>

Fourspheres...

.....Welcome to the forum; well... as they say, "one outta two ain't bad"; I believe, (know, actually), that should you do some research into this, you will discover that it was not "these Christians", nor any others that brought the blacks here and ran the slave trade... there were people that had to own the ships and make the decision to employ said ships in the merchandise of men, in the most literal sense; surely no one would suggest that this was a government operation that dated back to the 1600's, (perhaps earlier)?

.....There are records such as ship manifests, receipts, etc. that have a goodly number of names, representing a goodly number of ships that all have one thing in common; similar names and roots would be a gentle euphemism... Perhaps it's your first post that tends to restrain me...

[REL] The U.S. wasn't founded by

DancrPrancrPixie&Poo, ForkedOrbs,

Who let you Buffoons in?
Scram, shoo, beat it and caio, too.

Declare your stance, and prove it!
Engard!

(Former Fencer)

Im merely stating that the greatness of this country was founded more on the sweat of a black slave, and the ousting of the Natives, than on a moral anything!


It keeps me a little less inclined to boast/argue of the religious backgrounds of founding Fathers, who, if not a part of these, certainly also not too vocally against them either.

Just reminding everyone that not all was/is rosy in a country so "favored by the Creator".


And please refrain from calling me a buffoon. I am a Mom, wife, worker, and interner surfer. I just have fun joining in on anything involving religion or politics. This thread has a lil of both!

En Garde, indeed.

Fourspheres...

.....I won't call you any names until you start it; hehehe... I would submit that there are a great number of prophecies that are only fulfilled, by definition, in America; there have always been ugly things happening whether prophecy was being fulfilled or not... I'll be glad to look this all up for you, but this is the only land on the planet that is quartered by rivers, has an east and west shore or has the trees that Our Father promised; I want to say Isaiah 18, (just for starters), but I'll have to check...

Slaves were brought in by the Dutch, who ran most of the slave trade. Blacks were CAUGHT by other black tribesmen and sold to the Dutch. Generally, there was no way the Africans could have been caught by Europeans.

The Africans were not unified as the Indians were not unified. This made them weaker in the long run.

Some FF had slaves; some did not. This does NOT make them bad men. It was a sign of the times. I am sure there are many things in the world today that future generations will want to hold us accountable for, in say, 100 years.

All peoples have committed atrocities against other people- so get over it. It happens. People are stupid. Or greedy. Or power-hungry. Or even well-meaning, not understanding the ramifications.

AND most of the FF were white male Christians. Another *Oh well.* All the moaning and denying isn't going to change that.

JFTR- I am 1/4 American Indian and damn proud of it. It still doesn't change the facts.

Assertions have been made about the writings of several founding fathers that "prove" they are Christians, not deists. For those in support of this claim, it would be helpful to your argument to excerpt some of these in this thread, particularly since we have already read some quotes to the contrary here that have evidenced deist sentiments among several of those founding fathers.

P.S. Quotes that show great reverence for "Christian values" or God don't count. We're talking about a belief in Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord. Most interesting would be quotes from the key founding fathers, not the more obscure ones.

Any takers? I wouldn't know where to start, but several of you have good reference libraries as well as well-stocked Favorites lists and experience with finding these types of research items on search engines.

P.S. No matter how the country was founded, or upon which religious foundation our laws were modeled upon, sometimes we forget that we live in the present. We exist within, for better or worse, a validly multicultural, multiethnic, society, with many religions and variations of such. No matter who was "first" or "foremost" there is no legitimate basis in law for preferrering one religion or practice (or lack thereof) to any other, both freedom of religion and freedom from religion have both been interpreted as consquences of the First Amendment by the Supreme Court--without which the Constitution would be only a claim with no one to enforce it.